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We drove out to the Poconos in PA this summer. We stopped at Gettysburg for a day, and 1/2 a day at Valley Forge. Never any issue getting gasoline and filling up in minutes. 3,650 miles round trip.

At Valley Forge, we pulled up in the large parking lot, and as always I wanted a safe parking spot for my 911. Right by the bathrooms, next to the handicap parking up close and special was the four EV charging spots. So EVs get special close parking, except all four spots had these signs on them. There are only three in the photo so the text of the sign could be read in the picture. I did not feel bad about taking up a EV spot since the signs basically said "No juice for you"

Until the limited EV infrastructure becomes much more reliable, EVs are not ready for prime time except as a commuter vehicle. If I was commuting 30 or 40 miles per day each way I would indeed have a EV. My commute is 14 steps down the hall, so I will stick to my cars I bought in the last millennium and were paid for back then.

Exactly ^
That is a lot of ignorance on display there cp.

Each "supercharge" station requires massive inverters to take the AC and convert it to DC. - not cheap. If it were cheap Tesla would have them in more locations than Starbucks. - It's not as if Tesla doesn't have the capital to expand infrastructure. It's that each charger costs more than the car.

And THEN, where does that power/electricity originate?

I don't even have to shout, because the EVs are whirring by silently ;)

gasoline fueling infrastructure did not spring up fully formed overnight, and neither is electrical charging infra. But it's happening. So is the work to allow grids to handle it.

no, it doesn't. you can have a super charger in your house for less than 5 grand.



a power plant.

this isnt rocket science. if we can figure out a trucking system to put gas in every gas station. like we currently use the dumbest system possible for gas distribution, we can handle charging electric cars. it will happen, just the same as it happened for gas, and it will be a power of ten more efficient than trucking gasoline around.

Sure, but from an engineering economy perspective EV's are not the efficient path.

Hybrids, OTOH, make sense. Sure they add a layer of costly complexity to an ICE auto, but that complexity has economic viability (overall efficiency increased, typically.) And hybrids can exist as Plug-ins - which have both the slow over-night charge option AND the gas & go option.

This model of Tesla type full EV's taking over the flexibility (range & quick charge) is a massively expensive, resource-taxing endeavor. And for what? Some imagined ideal? - an ideal that requires MASSIVE strip mining to create huge batteries? Which then take massive additional infrastructure spending to reconfigure energy distribution (that has a likely origin of burning hydrocarbons)

yeah?

Is that the deal where you burn your garage to the ground?

Seriously, a super-charger in your house does not make a road trip easy.

And, if these are so cheap, then why are they not more ubiquitous than Starbucks or truck stops?

at 5k each, a Billion USD ought to buy 200 thousand super-chargers. - that's 4k per State. Where are they?

A Billion USD is play money for Tesla, so why are there not hundreds of thousands of these?

Some of the groups that I instruct for no longer allow EVs .

you realize the threat of fire to your garage is astronomically higher with gasoline in cans in it than electricity right?

there are already more than 200 thousand super chargers ... there are more than 2 million.

they are in people's garages.

Might be wrong but I don't think Tesla actually manufacture much other than batteries

They assemble numerous parts manufactured away from their factories ie tires, body pressings, interiors, suspension etc

Bet those graphs would be the other way around if the full scope of manufacturing was accounted for

Level 1 and level 2 chargers are in homes.

Tesla Superchargers and DC fast are generally not used in homes due to very high cost.

Can you post a reference to where people are installing 72, 150, or 250 kw Tesla Superchargers in their homes?

Having just spent the last 3yrs working on the most power dense/fastest discharge batteries probably used in any automotive application I've had a glimpse of the future

The technology challenges will be overcome, so will the logistical/infrastructure challenges too but I just can't see the cost to the consumer being anything like affordable for the average income motorist for a long time into the future

I'm not anti-EV but very anti-governments, institutions, companies bull$hitting/forcing the general population of the world down a one way street. There are so many other sectors of industry that need prioritising before car usage regarding their green credentials eg shipping, energy generation, raw material extraction, manufacturing, fashion, agriculture, etc etc

I think the EV revolution is more about keeping the developed world money machine going than any real desire to soften the impact people have on the planet

the average new car transaction is 42k.

a tesla model 3 is 46k with a 3,500 dollar tax break.

an EV is no more expensive than the average car.

Bolt is ~30k MSRP with 250mi range. Battery cost per KWH came down by 80% over the last decade.

The large manufacturers of cars are just coming online with vehicles intented for scale. EVs will be cheaper than IC equivalents in a decade.

The future of automobiles is electric. It has already been decided. The infrastructure will be forced to adapt. The time line is being written but tradjectory is set.

Electrification is well under way in nearly every other faster moving industry. This feels a bit like Deja Vu when top performance RC went from nitro fuel and then lithum / brushless. Battery powered hand tools have all but replaced pneumatic. Battery powered lawn tools are better than gas for people with median sized yards.

yup.

as i said before, we are going to switch to EVs. not because they are cleaner, or cheaper or whatever ... we are going to switch to them because they are better. the model 3 performance pack is a better car than cars double the price. its that simple. its just better.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...38/822/341.png

I mean there are still compromises. I wouldnt own a tesla due to parts support and they certainly arnt good road trip vehicles. Any one I know who has an EV around here has another long distance vehicle. Replacing one IC vehicle with 2 defeats the purpose, but most housholds are multi vehicle already. Long distance travel still needs to be solved and actual heavy duty practicality like towing will lag.


Disclaimer: never owned an EV or even a hybrid and I work in big nasty oil. Will probably buy a prius prime when car market returns to sanity

they actually are fantastic road trip vehicles.

costs 10% what a gas car costs to drive per day, and let elon do the driving.

everyone i know with teslas road trips them all over the place. thats half the point. cheap, easy, relaxing road tripping.

its just not true for people who don't make a sport of "find the supercharger that isnt broken".

idk, my two closest tesla owning friends have never had a problem in there BOTH coasts road trips that they went on.

i believe them.

In the US maybe but what is the real cost before government company tax incentives/subsidies are account for?

In the UK there is a wider price difference between EV and ICE

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/saloon-showdown-tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-3-series

Tesla Model 3 £62K
BMW 330i £39k

Even at £39k the majority of cars at this price point are sold to folk that can only afford them in monthly lease/hire purchase payments.

In the current economic climate with sky rocketing inflation/energy costs I'm not sure where people are going to find an extra 50% or even if the price drops a bit extra 30% to pay for a new car

Very much doubt in our lifetime an EV will cost less than the equivalent ICE as customers will have to pay for the seismic transformation that all the automotive manufacturers will have to go through to meet the legislative demands forced onto their companies and supplier network

as pointed out, they already do.

Bit more zoomed in scale wise.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1660252849.png

As pointed out the EV and ICE price game is 'fixed' very much in favour of EV's

To be fair, Porsche is probably still at the top of this list, just not when lumped in with VW currently.

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Hmm, I beg to differ, Curious, have you road tripped a Tesla. I have. We have two of them. Took my wife's Model 3 to Sacramento about 3 weeks ago and we just got back yesterday from a trip to San Francisco then to Monterey and back to LA....Other then the 2 screws I got in my rear tire in San Francisco, the trip was completely painless. Left my house with a full charge, drove to Kettleman where they have about 55 superchargers and a nice Tesla Lounge. Had a fantastic ribeye sandwich at the BBQ joint across the street, used the bathroom in the Tesla Lounge,( it was spotless) then drove the rest if the way to San Francisco. Got to the hotel, where they valet parked the car and plugged it in. We walked to local bar for drinks and then another place for dinner.

The next day, grabbed the car from the valet. It was fully charged and we drove around visted sights in the area. Parked it that evening, the valet topped it off.

The next day. With a full charge. We drove south to the airport for our global entry interviews, then continued down to Monterey for the night via the coast.. finally, on the way home, we stopped twice for about 35 min each time and drove home.

It was a great trip. Never had to wait for a charge station. The charging at the hotel was completely free and my car has free supercharging for life. So other then the 80 bucks to get my tire fixed and that minor inconvenience. Driving it there and back cost me nothing.

I originally said I was going to sell my Tesla when I retired. But it was such an enjoyable road car, I think I'm gonna keep it. Admittedly, the availability of superchargers as you head east isn't the same as here in California and if you are a fill up and go type of road tripper, you won't like it. But, now that I'm retired. I'M like that Doobie Brother song lyric. " I AINT GOT NO WORRIES, BECAUSE I AINT IN NO HURRY AT ALL"

OH BTW, I didn't buy it to be green, I bought it because I liked the way it looked and after driving one, I liked the way it drove. 90K miles later, thats still true and other then tires, I haven't spent a dime.

99% of the time half of them work! Completely disingenuous statistic, i guess they at least included the fine print

https://noveltystreet.com/wp-content...logne-Meme.jpg


As should be plainly apparent I am far from anti-ev, but the tiniest bit of common sense, or just a bit of background reading will make it clear that long distance roadtripping an EV requires much more forethought and planning than an IC car (essentially 0 currently).

Since we like fun tangentially related anecdotes:

Coast to coast record in an EV is ~43 hours and 25.5 hours in an IC car

I get it. Driving around cali valet parking eating steaks is not the typical road trip scenario for many drivers however. where it works it works.


I drove from houston to indiana last week. Straight through. I almost ran out of gas at one point because I forgot I would be driving in a rural area with no gas stations for 150 miles or so.

Oh one other thing, while at one of the superchargers, I parked next to a guy that was standing outside his car having a smoke. Come to find out, the model S he was driving had 339K on it. He said it still had the original battery, but the range had dropped from 270 ish down to 230. It was a 2014.

The 50% statistic is to exclude brand new stations that are only partially up and running. It's typically only the very old stations that have an issue now and then, or the ones with the cut cords, etc., saw one of those being fixed one day.

I don't usually drive around eating steaks either, I just used the money I didn't have to spend on gas. 😉

Try doing that drive in the midwest Michael and let me know how it goes.

For Pikes Peak Hillclimb and Goodwood Festival of Speed EV for the win :cool:

Le Man 24hrs hybrid for the win :cool:

I really want to see an EV car break the Nevada Silverstate Classic road race and an EV motorbike break the Isle of Man TT record

Yep BEV makes 100% sense for sprints the power density is amazing, energy density still kinda blows hence the road trip problem

Hybrid can be the best of both worlds particularly with race or supercar budgets. An outright win for a pure BEV vehicle in an endurance race would be quite the achievement. Maybe in my kids lifetime or with a brute force method of hot swapping batteries.

Brabaus a company known for adding big engines have embraced the EV future

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/brabus-reveals-modified-mercedes-benz-eqs-increased-range

With EV's tuners are going to need to offer weight saving, aero improvements, improved energy density to offset power increase so as to maintain/ improve range

insightful.

What you actually just said:

the average new car transaction is 42k.

a (bottom of the barrel cheapest) tesla model 3 is <strike>46k with a 3,500 dollar tax break.</strike> $49,500

[the cheapest Tesla] EV is <strike>no</strike> 18% more expensive than the average car


FYI, the cheapest new cars are less than half the cost of the cheapest Tesla.

Nissan Sentra Base Price: $20,635

Chevy Spark Base price: $14,595

both getting nearly 40 mpg.

LOL
and where do you put that super charger when you live on the 2nd. 3rd, 5th, 10th floor of a brownstone or apartment building with no private garage or parking?
What about homes built 40-60 years ago that don't have the proper system to handle that high amperage?
How much will the utility company start jacking up their rates when they have to completely revamp infastructure to handle the exponential increase in demand for power?
Where do you get your recharge when there is a blackout due to fires, snow storms, hurricanes...?

But hey, don't have to worry about those things because people like AOC suggest "just don't be poor" or other idiot Democrats who brag about how nice it is to have their $80k EV while in meetings discussing how to help the average American cope with increased fuel prices.:rolleyes:

Yes, apartments are a problem.

On the grid / old house thing again... My 1963 built house uses*less* power than when purchased in 2009 because of an updated hvac, lower power lights, TVs, etc., and adding the car.

No, not a solution for everyone, but millions more of these cars can work just fine in situations that work for them, and stuff can get upgraded over the years it will take to build those to make them work in more situations.

Also, it's not like you're sitting around with an uncharged car, waiting to charge it before you go somewhere, that is such a weird argument. My car is sitting in the garage charged all the time, my tires are a way bigger thing to worry about in a snow storm than the charge.

Who exactly fills their tank to 90% full every single day in case something happens and they need to split? :/

That's how an electric car works though.