Alec Baldwin Will Be Charged With Involuntary Manslaughter in ‘Rust’ Killing

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by masraum

I think if they need to look real, then dummy rounds are used which have no primer and no powder. But I'm not "in the biz" so I could be wrong.

I think they would need a primer to go "bang", and missing primers like you posted would be obvious.... mebbe a dummy primer???

Where is Craigster ?

[Jeff Higgins]

Steve did a great job of illustrating the differences in appearance, and explaining the differences in functionality of live, dummy, and blank rounds. I only have a couple of things to add.

Dummy rounds are used in scenes where we can see the front of the cylinder, so we can see the noses of the bullets. They are also used in scenes where we can see the gun being loaded. They have to look real, because we can see them. Most have a hole drilled in the side of the case, no primer in the primer pocket, and a BB inside. Visual and tactile indications they are dummies.

Blanks do not look anything like a real round. Steve shows us the common crimped together case mouth, which is one version. The other version is an uncrimped case with a wax plug in the end. There was a TV actor in the '70's or '80's who foolishly put one of these up to his head when he was horsing around with his buddies on set. The wax wad, at touching his head range, had enough energy to penetrate his skull (as thick as it must have been) and kill him. For this, and other reasons, they are seldom used in prop guns anymore.

The wax wad "blanks" are commonly used in fast draw competitions, where they shoot balloons at very close range. Mounted Cowboy Action shooters use them as well, in a contest that crosses barrel racing with balloon shooting (as an aside, you guys should watch the ladies competing in this. Boy, can they ride. And shoot.) These competitions need something to come out of the gun, just preferably not a bullet. With the wax wad, anyone more than ten yards away is in no danger of getting hurt.

I'm suspicious of the whole ammo story. Reed is a shooter - why would she not ever buy ammo? It sounds like someone is trying to insinuate that because she has purchased ammo in the past, she just must have brought some onto the set. Just silly, really.

Nowhere did she say she could not tell the difference between these various ammo types. I'm sure she can. My three year old grand daughter can. It ain't hard. The important things to remember here, that seem to keep getting lost, is that:

a) She was away from the set, at lunch, when this incident occurred.

b) She did not handle this firearm before it was handed to Baldwin.

c) She did not have full, absolute, sole access to the gun storage utilized on set. Baldwin insisted he have access as well. Highly irregular, from what I understand. Perhaps a more forceful, older armorer (like her dad) would have told Baldwin to fck himself. Baldwin bullied her into providing him access.

[Tobra]

One more thing that increases his culpability

[Steve Carlton]

Obviously, we cannot assume facts in articles like this are solid.

The rookie had been in charge of initially loading the vintage Colt .45 revolver Baldwin ultimately used in the October 2021 disaster.

But she then allegedly left the church set where the scene was being filmed and was not present when the life-ending shot was fired.

She claimed later to police no one notified her the weapon was being used on the set.

Cops also obtained text messages which showed Reed had tried to use live ammunition on set during a past film production, although she maintained the “Rust” revolver was only loaded with dummy bullets.

Immediately following the shooting, investigators who scoured the “Rust” set described finding a combination of live rounds and dummy bullets on the set, a serious safety violation, which fell under Gutierrez-Reed’s purview.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/21/rust-armorer-hannah-gutierrez-reed-gets-new-hearing-date/

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that HG-R couldn't tell the difference between types of rounds.

https://variety.com/2022/film/news/rust-investigation-live-round-hannah-gutierrez-reed-1235243228/

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Obviously, we cannot assume facts in articles like this are solid.

Calling them "facts" is even a bit of a stretch.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

The rookie had been in charge of initially loading the vintage Colt .45 revolver Baldwin ultimately used in the October 2021 disaster.

"Rookie". This young lady grew up with guns. Her dad, Thell, is one of the most respected, accomplished shooters of our time. This young lady had spent more time around firearms by the time she was six years old than most avid shooters will spend in a lifetime.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

But she then allegedly left the church set where the scene was being filmed and was not present when the life-ending shot was fired.

"Allegedly." This much has been established by every witness report.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

She claimed later to police no one notified her the weapon was being used on the set.

She wasn't even there. No way to notify her. Nobody should have even touched that gun in her absence. Yet Baldwin insisted on his authority to have access in her absence.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Cops also obtained text messages which showed Reed had tried to use live ammunition on set during a past film production, although she maintained the “Rust” revolver was only loaded with dummy bullets.

Again, she purchased live ammunition. God only knows where she used it, but it stands to reason that a shooter such as herself would, at some point, buy ammo. She was told not to use any in prop guns, and she agreed not to do so. The fact that she, at some point, purchased ammo does not in any way indicate she used it in prop guns. A non-sequitur that many would like us to believe.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Immediately following the shooting, investigators who scoured the “Rust” set described finding a combination of live rounds and dummy bullets on the set, a serious safety violation, which fell under Gutierrez-Reed’s purview.

Only if she had sole access to, and sole authority over, the firearms in use. Baldwin would not allow her to have that. Let's not forget this. This is crucial.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that HG-R couldn't tell the difference between types of rounds.

Again, any shooter will tell you that is absolutely ludicrous. The differences are that obvious. Like I said, my three year old grand daughter can tell the difference. I'm not being facetious when I say that.

Those who make statements like this are counting on their audience never having seen nor handled the items under discussion. If I handed you one example of each of the three - real rounds, dummy rounds, and blanks, explaining which is which, you would, for the rest of your life, have no trouble discerning the difference. Even blind, feeling them in a paper bag or something. The differences are that pronounced. For obvious reasons.

[Steve Carlton]

Except for your first and last quote of me, you're arguing with the text of the articles I linked.

What do you think of the "information" in this article?

https://www.insider.com/who-is-hannah-guttierez-reed-rust-armorer-alec-baldwin-shooting-2021-10

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Except for your first and last quote of me, you're arguing with the text of the articles I linked.

All of my comments were directed at the contents of the articles you linked. My intent was never to "shoot the messenger" - you. You thought this was about you?

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

What do you think of the "information" in this article?

https://www.insider.com/who-is-hannah-guttierez-reed-rust-armorer-alec-baldwin-shooting-2021-10

Just another pig-pile "hit piece". Lots of innuendo, lots of Hollywood types being "quoted". Lots of pretty much assuredly out of context quotes. Pretty transparent, really. The "big guns" are all aimed squarely at Reed in an all too obvious effort to shift the blame to her.

Again, even these Hollywood types have said that things were highly unusual on this set. Baldwin demanded access to the guns. The guns were out of locked storage when she wasn't even on the set. The fact that she may or may not have handled the guns that day, prior to this fatal incident, would be irrelevant had they followed the usual, customary protocol. That protocol would have had those guns locked up and inaccessible to anyone else while she was not on the set. The fact that they were accessible, per Baldwin's demands, changes everything. The fact that they did not put them away, and lock them up, and leave them locked up while she was away from the set changes everything.

Oh, and it does not escape me that you have now dropped the "she couldn't tell blanks from live rounds" argument. Again, absolutely ludicrous. I would be interested to read your thoughts on that, since that appeared to be very much a centerpiece of your argument.

[greglepore]

Jeff, I know you have some respect for H G-R and some disdain for Baldwin, but this begs the question of HOW did a live round end up in a gun on set? Even assuming that Baldwin pulled the trigger and bears responsibility, whomever allowed live ammo on the set also does. Lots of things wrong here.
And yeah, Cowboy Action Shooting is awesome. I'm always in awe of not only the riders but the horses, as its very unnatural for a horse to be calm when someone is blasting away.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Oh, and it does not escape me that you have now dropped the "she couldn't tell blanks from live rounds" argument. Again, absolutely ludicrous. I would be interested to read your thoughts on that, since that appeared to be very much a centerpiece of your argument.

I read that somewhere. I'm referencing what I've read along the way, it doesn't make it a fact and I don't present these things as facts. You seem to speak from your vast experience as if what you say is fact- there's a difference. I haven't "dropped" the argument over HG-R's ability to recognize what ammo is what. You shouldn't assume that.

There were incidents on the set of The Old Way caused safety concerns about HG-R and led to her firing, apparently.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/27/entertainment/armorer-rust-set/index.html

Jeff- you've claimed Alec Baldwin had access to the guns. I believe the Assistant Director David Halls did, and I believe he probably shouldn't have. I haven't heard that Baldwin did- do you have any links to that?

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by KC911

I think they would need a primer to go "bang", and missing primers like you posted would be obvious.... mebbe a dummy primer???

Where is Craigster ?

Dummy rounds look real but of course are empty except for a BB inside which rattles when you shake it. We normally shake the round just to double check even though it's a hard and fast rule that no live rounds are EVER brought onto a studio lot or location.

I'm still sold on the "after hours plinking" theory. The Armorer is 100% at fault for this. "She had one job".

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Jeff- you've claimed Alec Baldwin had access to the guns. I believe the Assistant Director David Halls did, and I believe he probably shouldn't have. I haven't heard that Baldwin did- do you have any links to that?

It's probably been covered before, but guns are never just sitting out with access to cast and crew. The Armorer hovers over them and watches them like a Hawk. I don't even touch them on set and they are part of my department.

After the director yells "cut" the Armorer takes and clears the gun and keeps it in his/her possession until filming commences. The old days of letting an actor hold onto a gun between takes ended with the Jon Erik Hexum incident. Since then it has been protocol to clear and secure all weapons when not being filmed.

[craigster59]

HG-R complained of having to do other tasks outside of her Armorer duties. Propmasters are responsible for bringing and placing all the directors chairs for the cast, eyeglasses, wedding rings, watches, food being consumed in the scene and any other items that the actors handle.

Armorers are usually propmasters or assistants with all of the FFL credentials and weapons knowledge. I can work on a show and do props and ready actors for a scene on multiple days, but if weapons are involved on that day of filming I put on my Armorer hat and that is my sole purpose on set that day. No eyeglasses/wedding ring detail, strictly weapons.

That's where the wheels started to fall off the wagon on Rust.

[Steve Carlton]

Craig- should Baldwin have refused to take the gun from David Halls?

If Baldwin pulled the trigger, should that possibility been allowed for in the on set safety protocols, which are designed to accommodate such a mistake?

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Craig- should Baldwin have refused to take the gun from David Halls?

If Baldwin pulled the trigger, should that possibility been allowed for in the on set safety protocols, which are designed to accommodate such a mistake?

He should have questioned why the Armorer was not on set, especially in his capacity as a Producer.

A normal production would have had multiple guns for the lead actor. "Hero" (practical/operating), inop prop gun (which should have been used in this instance) and rubber guns for stunts and wider shots. There's an old Prop Man adage "If you have one, you have none" meaning you always have doubles and backup for your props in case they break or get lost or stolen. Holding up production due to a missing prop is very costly.

The fact that it was low budget and had inexperienced crew played a large part in this tragedy. There's areas where you can cut corners on the budget but crew safety and firearms is not one of the areas.

[sc_rufctr]

What we don't know is how a live round got into that gun.
- Who put it in there and when?

Was it the day before at a plinking session?
- If yes then why wasn't the gun cleared?

These are basic questions and yet the investigators can't answer them.

[Steve Carlton]

This could be behind a paywall if you've read too many articles for free. Sure seems like this process is slow. This is dated today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/17/arts/rust-prosecutors-alec-baldwin.html

‘Rust’ Prosecutors Seek Further Tests on Gun Handled by Alec Baldwin
The prosecutors, who dropped criminal charges against Mr. Baldwin after learning that the gun he was rehearsing with might have been modified, are sending the gun to a forensic specialist.




An old-fashioned revolver, resting on a pile of material and other things, as seen in a sheriff department photo.
Prosecutors want to send the gun that was used in the fatal “Rust” shooting for further tests to see if it was modified. Credit...Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office

By Julia Jacobs
May 17, 2023, 6:53 p.m. ET
Prosecutors are seeking further testing on the gun that Alec Baldwin was handling on the “Rust” film set when it fired and killed the cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, as they work to decide whether to revive a criminal case against the actor.

Mr. Baldwin was initially charged with involuntary manslaughter, but prosecutors in New Mexico dismissed the case against him last month. They withdrew the charges after being presented with evidence suggesting that the gun Mr. Baldwin had been rehearsing with that day had been modified, which potentially made an unintentional discharge easier.

The old-fashioned revolver at the center of the case has already been examined by the F.B.I., but on Wednesday, the prosecutors, Kari T. Morrissey and Jason J. Lewis, sought court approval to have it tested by an outside ballistics expert. They wrote in court papers that they had learned during their investigation that the hammer of the gun may have been intentionally modified.

“The modification appears to be related to the notches on the internal portion of the hammer for full-cock, half-cock and quarter cock positions,” the prosecutors wrote in court papers. “It appears that these notches may have been partially removed or ground down so that they are less prominent.”

The ballistics expert, Lucien Haag, who has worked as a consultant for prosecutors and defense lawyers, would also be asked to determine whether other firearms that had been on the set had also been modified “possibly for ease of use by actors,” the prosecutors wrote. Live and inert ammunition found at the scene, as well as powder residue left on Ms. Hutchins’s clothing, would be submitted for testing as well.

Mr. Baldwin has long denied responsibility for the fatal shooting of Ms. Hutchins in 2021, asserting that he had been told the gun did not contain live ammunition and that he had not pulled the trigger before it went off. He said that the gun fired after he had pulled its hammer back and let it go.

A lawyer for Mr. Baldwin did not immediately comment on the request for further testing.

The prosecutors who filed the charges against Mr. Baldwin had maintained that based on F.B.I. testing of the gun, it could not have fired without the trigger having been depressed. But any modifications to the gun that would have made it easier to go off would complicate a prosecutor’s argument that Mr. Baldwin had behaved negligently on set.

The involuntary manslaughter charges against the movie’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, still stand. A lawyer representing her, Jason Bowles, has said she plans to plead not guilty. Mr. Bowles said on Wednesday that he welcomed the continued investigation into the source of the live rounds that were found on the set and into the functionality of the firearm.

[Zeke]

"He said that the gun fired after he had pulled its hammer back and let it go."

I understand that a normal single action revolver would be 'cocked' if you did this. After pulling the hammer back wouldn't the person remove their thumb or finger from the hammer as a normal course of action?

I guess if you want to get technical about semantics, AB says he didn't pull the trigger. Nope. It was already pulled or disabled. Now it may boil down to a decision of semantics. He let the gun shoot unaware of the status of the ammo.

I will conclude that AB will be charged with something. The situation is unusual to say the least. It's a movie unto itself.

[sc_rufctr]

These two questions need to be answered and yet...

- Who put the live round into the gun?

- Why wasn't the gun cleared before being handed to AB?

[Rick Lee]

Don't care about who did or didn't do what. I wouldn't point a gun at someone my own mother had handed me, even if she were as experienced as I am. I fondle guns several times per day, have done so for decades. I clear them. Every. Single. Time. Repeat. This kind of "incident" could not have happened with responsible, gun-trained people.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Don't care about who did or didn't do what. I wouldn't point a gun at someone my own mother had handed me, even if she were as experienced as I am. I fondle guns several times per day, have done so for decades. I clear them. Every. Single. Time. Repeat. This kind of "incident" could not have happened with responsible, gun-trained people.

I agree 100%... I was trained long ago when I was in the army that you must clear all weapons as soon as they come in your possession (handed over or picked up, it doesn't matter... They must be cleared even if the person handing you the weapons clears it in front of you).

But after everything that's happened I think my two questions are important and should be answered.

- So who put the live round into the gun? (Not as important as my next question)

- And why wasn't the gun cleared before being handed to AB?