Difficult discussions about Owen Walter

[FA-18C]

4 years ago we fostered then adopted a tough case. The dog had been abused and essentially left in the back yard for years. The rescue group had placed her several times and she was returned - a natural escape artist. She would hide behind a chair and shake until her teeth clattered when I walked into the room. I took patience and time - sounds like you have given time and are out of patience. Been there. Bea is a different dog - loves to play and wrestle with our Aussie - but it took a lot of time for here to learn to be a dog, and to play. Still, she panics around strangers, and Friday I will be replacing $3K worth of carpet she tore up trying to get away from the evil house cleaner.

In the balance, as pissed as I was, we get more from Bea than she takes, same with the Aussie. So she gave us an opportunity to replace old carpet...

A good friend swears by CBD treats for his dog...

[FA-18C]

Also - there is nothing like a golden... we lost our Annabelle 7 years ago, I think the best dog we ever had. Took my wife a couple of years to miss having a dog enough to move on. BTW an Australian Shepherd puppy is the cutest evil beast on the planet. She is now a pleasure, but holy crap she made us work for it.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

There is truth to that. To some extent the problem was caused by the way he was raised. We got him for the wrong reasons. My wife's dog companion of many years had died a few weeks before we got married. She wanted a dog to take his place. I can see how it would be hard to raise a new dog when you are still mourning the loss of a long time companion.

She got Owen because she missed her old dog. When I got my Maddie it was because because I wanted HER and there is the difference.

My wife was not interested in training Owen. I was fully occupied with Madison since before we even met, so she raised Owen in her own way.

When I got Maddie she and I went to puppy school together when she was a few weeks old, then to two levels of obedience school. We interacted constantly and were best friends. We made each other happy and there was joy in our relationship. Owen got none of that. He was a replacement dog and that's part of the problem.

BTW the "rat dog" comment is way off the mark. Owen and Madison were both the same size, but different as night and day. The old shoe in the picture was one of Maddie's toys.

Analyzing what went wrong isn't solving the immediate problem. When we got him back to the house Monday night the dam broke. We looked at each other and confessed that we don't really like Owen and had been feeling that way for a long time. Neither one of us had the courage to say it before. It was a gut punch for both of us. We love him in a way, but we don't like him. He is ours and he is our responsibility, but he is ruining our lives.

There you have it. The dog is not trained and will be forever so.

[911 Rod]

You will have some sleepless nights with any decision.
Personally I'd be finding a better place for Owen.

[Seahawk]

Very interesting thread, WD. As they say, the only easy day was yesterday.

We came very close to returning a rescue Heeler, Cassie. In the below pic she is older and wiser.

When we got her she was a very angry dog who had been left alone for long periods of time, probably abused.

She was exhausting and my wife was at her wits end...many of the same emotions you guys are going through.



She had Earl the wonder lab and that probably changed her, allowed her to begin to trust again. We got lucky, no other way to say it: Earl the Pearl.



Whatever path you choose is going to be difficult. I wish that wasn't true.

Best.

[Steve Carlton]

Why not talk to a professional trainer?

[3rd_gear_Ted]

The electronic shock collars will alter behavior, try one out, give it a chance

[porsche tech]

Shock collar X2. We live across the fairway from a lagoon that has alligators in it and needed to know Bosco would come back when we called him. We did the off leash training with the shock collar and he learned very quickly (come, place, stay, heel). Very seldom do I have to zap him but when I do, it just gets his attention and he does as he is told. Couple of times I had it turned up too high and he yiped but no harm done. The vet said “he doesn’t know you’re doing it, he thinks God is getting after him”! Anyway I highly recommend Off Leash Training. Google it.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Zeke

There you have it. The dog is not trained and will be forever so.

It's socialization more than training, but you are correct it will be forever so. There's no winding it back. I spent just a couple of months with him last summer and he is smart as a whip. I taught him sit-stay, down-stay, sing, wave, and how to wait at a door for permission before going through it. He was taken from his mother before 8 weeks, plus when we got him home it was always just the four of us. He didn't have much interaction with other people or other dogs. He didn't have much opportunity to learn how to be a dog in a human world. Big mistake on our part.

We had a good conversation with our vet. She is wonderful. She thinks a big part of his problem is anxiety. She identified a few things we need to look at:

The leader of the pack is gone, and he doesn't know where he stands in the group.

The CATS! I didn't think about the cats, but we have six cats roaming around outside. Even if he can't see them he knows they are there, and probably keeping him on edge. It may be the reason he barks to be let out 20 times a day, and still comes in to pee on the carpet. My opinion is this is big. There is one cat that loves to sit on Vicki's lap when she's outside and it drives Owen insane.

We don't exercise him enough. Good point. I hate walking him, but I'm doing it wrong. I let him stop and smell and pee on everything in sight. I do it because I think he likes it and I'm doing him a favor, but it's torture for me. I need to march him on a short lead down the center of the road so he isn't pulling and jerking the leash. Get him tired.

She is giving him trazadone to calm his ass down. She wasn't real confident of the benefits to CBD but said it probably wouldn't hurt so I ordered some.

One thing that Vic and I discussed is the fact that it is mid winter and we both are susceptible to SAD. We are depressed, short tempered, and pissed off about everything most of the time due to the weather and that ain't helping.

I'm optimistic that we can fix this, or at least make it tolerable.

Thanks for all the input here. You guys are amazing.

[rwest]

A tired dog is a good dog and is good for the people too. I think walking him more will be good for all of you.

[FA-18C]

Amen rwest. Every dog is different, but if our Aussie is not walked and worked, there is some chaos. When they have lots of time in the yard to burn energy and walked, and part of the pack, holy crap difference.

FWIW - dogs can be a burden, but it is worth it. Every gap in our adult lives without a dog we fully agree had a hole in it. They are family, and family can be messy at times.

Don't beat yourself up, everyone has ups and downs.

[Rikao4]

my terror..
my Murphy..
was a long road..
he lived to be 12..
active terrorist in his early years..
awesome oldie...
miss him tooo...


Rika

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Zeke

There you have it. The dog is not trained and will be forever so.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

..... you are correct it will be forever so. There's no winding it back. ........

I'm optimistic that we can fix this, or at least make it tolerable...

Which is it, WD? Hopeless/doomed? Or is there hope?

Our rescue dog, a Heeler mix, who had been abused. It took her 1.5 years to stop being afraid of me. During that time, she cowered and escaped when I tried to touch her. We have now had her for 2.3 years and I think she no longer remembers being unloved. She still has some behavioral challenges, but she is WAY better and just a wonderful companion.

Among other strategies, we worked with a dog trainer. Actually she trained us, not the dong. She strongly asserted that you CAN teach new tricks to old dogs. EVERY dog can learn.

I agree. Your dog is not doomed. And maybe the question is whether you can invest the time. That said, i think there is no wrong answer. It's your call. You have given Owen a good life.

[wdfifteen]

We started following the vet's ideas this morning. I took him for a walk on a short lead and kept him close to me except for a couple of poop and pee breaks. When he strained against the leash I gave a little tug back and give him the sharp corrective sound I used with Maddie - "Ehh!"
He is such a smart little bugger. After a few hundred yards he got the idea and kept the leash slack except for a couple of times. It was actually a pleasant walk. 1 1/2 miles and he was ready to be home.
Unlike Maddie who would look up at me to check in every few yards, he kept his head down and trotted along. He and I are just not that connected, but I guess I can live with it. I have to keep telling myself he isn't Maddie and never will be.
Don't know what to do about the cats.

[Superman]

Congrats! You could end up wondering who is learning the most.

[Rikao4]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

...He and I are just not that connected, but I guess I can live with it. I have to keep telling myself he isn't Maddie and never will be.
Don't know what to do about the cats.

Poor guy..
he isn't..
not even trying to..
but everyone keeps pointing this out to him ..
then your Lady and her cats...
must be like a Catholic in a Muslim foster home..
well intentioned but...
everyone's life is to short for all this..
ask about..

Rika

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by Superman

Congrats! You could end up wondering who is learning the most.

Yeah, a lot of truth there. I'm learning what I have to do for him and learning about myself. I think when I look at Owen something in my subconscious says, "You're not Maddie" and I get resentful and pissed off at him. I have to stop that. Got some training of my own to do I guess. I shouldn't take it out on him.

What to do about the cats? Here he is pulling sentry duty, guarding his dog run against an incursion of ninja kitties. He watched for them four hours at a time. I won't go into the whole cat behavior problem, but I have a plan for what to do.

I want to thank all of you who posted to this thread, helping pull me off the ledge. This can be a great place.

[Superman]

We just threw ideas up. You did the thinking and deciding. And now, it sounds like you've got some new awarenesses and a project. Fun!

[ramonesfreak]

Your dog is barking a thousand times a day to go outside for the same reason mine does. He hears something out there. I have no idea how he does it with the windows closed in the dead of winter but when any of the 4 houses around me let out a dog (all fenced in city lots), he knows. We say, no way can’t be that but then look and sure enough….there’s a dog out. He has super sensitive hearing beyond what I thought a dog was capable of

Cats, it’s weird cause we always had dogs and cats inside and had no issues but my dog Buddy goes more insane when he sees a cat than anything else. He sits on the top of the couch behind my head looking out and if the cat from across the street is seen by him the instant piercing vicious barking he lets out could give you a heart attack. I don’t know why but he hates cats

I could eliminate this by moving the couch but I live with it because he enjoys looking out there. I put up with a lot of schit for this dog but I love him

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by ramonesfreak

Y

I put up with a lot of schit for this dog but I love him

You are a good man.

I think we have come up with a solution to the barking. So far we couldn't tell if he was barking to be let out to pee or barking because he hears a cat. So we are taking him out and sticking with him until we see him drain himself. Then we put the Bark Box by the door for a few hours because we know if he's there barking it's because of a cat.

We got the Bark Box to use when we traveled with the dogs to keep them quiet. It emits a high pitched sound that they don't like. They hated it so much that all they had to do was see it and they quieted down.

It rained all day yesterday but I'm about to take him out for a 1/2 mile march.