F1 2023

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by red 928

But I think the year that really hurt him was in 2021 when
the young Lando Norris whipped him badly in an identical McLaren
(160 to 115).

Daniel is a nice guy,
But as I said, I believe he's an average driver.
I have nothing against him except that
he gets so much undeserved press and hype.

I'd say he is about on par with Perez talent-wize,
who I haven't rooted for since he intentionally crashed
his team mate Ocon many years ago
under a yellow flag because Ocon had the audacity
to challenge him on-track.
I think it's karma that he is getting embarrassed
by his current teammate at nearly every race this year.

Fair enough.. I agree with you on all that - I think Lando (aka peter pan) is quite special and has not had the car to get results until now. Apparently that changed a bit (unless it was a track/weather fluke). Overall I agree RIC and PER should do better in the best car...

In fact it's interesting to see to me: imagine VER did not exist, where would red bull be ? Winning some but not all the races and people may think the field is close and the RB car is tricky... Same with Aston Martin - had they kept say STR and whoever was available other than Alonso, would the car had shone like it did early in the season ? I bet not. Conversely I think a guy like Leclerc is pushing that Ferrari 3 spots higher on the grid than it deserves... It's funny how VER can start last and you know he will end up 1 or 2, while you know PER will somehow eff up qualifying for a reason or another.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I'm no driving expert but IMHO there are 2, maybe 4 drivers in F1

Max, Alonso, maybe Hamilton and Lando

That have such an exceptional natural ability, they can drive a car faster than it really should go

There are no bad drivers in F1, only have to see what the slower F1 drivers achieve when they leave F1

[rfuerst911sc]

A couple of F1 sites are saying Lando has signed a " pre contract " with Ferrari . If true what is a pre contract ? Does that mean if one of the current Ferrari drivers leave does Lando automatically go to Ferrari ?

[red 928]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

I'm no driving expert but IMHO there are 2, maybe 4 drivers in F1

Max, Alonso, maybe Hamilton and Lando

That have such an exceptional natural ability, they can drive a car faster than it really should go

There are no bad drivers in F1, only have to see what the slower F1 drivers achieve when they leave F1

Agreed.

I believe there are three facets to being a great F1 driver:

1) Being able to drive faster than anyone for a lap or three
with an equal car.

2) being able to drive fast, consistantly without
making a dumb mistake or wearing out the equipment

3) being able to develop the car and team to improve it.

Max, alonso and Lando can check the box for number one.
Vettel could occasionally when younger.
Hamilton has done this for years,
but I'm not convinced it wasn't just the car.
A bit biased here.
Same deal with Max.
Seems like he can just cruise most of the time and only
has to turn it up in the last minute of Q3.
Maybe they are so good they just makes it look too easy.

Hamilton's claim to fame is #2, concentration.
He rarely makes a dumb mistake under pressure or
when the pressure is off with as a big lead.
He just drives and doesn't go off or tear up the machine.
Take away the whining and character flaws and I'd root for him.

This was vettel's shortcoming.
To often he went off or cause a collision at an inopportune time throwing away a race or lead. Choked.
Maybe he ran out of talent, maybe he lost focus,
maybe he was just pushing the car farther than it could go.
That is what kept him from being great.
Leclerc is following that same path.
Max did this in his first few years.
Pushing too hard, charging into a corner when there isn't room,
challenging other drivers to get out of his way or crash.
He has grown out of that for the most part.

This could also be George's fate but the jury is still out.
He CAN be fast, really fast. he can also blow it if pushed.
I think he has the capability to be great. Only time will tell.
He has all the raw talent, he just needs the smarts.

Schumacher could almost check all three but he did
get caught up in the red mist a few times and made mistakes.
Not many.
He also used intimidation against other drivers to let him past
or move over.

His greatest talent was making the car and team better.
Over-achieving.

I believe Alonso is the best active driver.
If he were in a red bull he'd be lapping the 2nd place car.
He just drives so much smarter.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I'd agree with Alonso being the best driver racing in F1

Alpine not wanting to offer him a longer term deal just made him even faster as he now has a point to prove

Alonso is unstoppable this year, must be quite crushing for Lance when his team mate driving around in 2nd is giving him encouragement over radio after watching his driving on a trackside big screen

[Zeke]

Reading the comments above and seeing Michael Schumacher mentioned, I think MS could drive very well ahead of where the car was at the moment. He didn't necessarily drive faster than the car could go, but he was always ahead of the car. IOW, I'm thinking he made his input and waited for the car to do what he expected it to do. You hardly ever saw him counter steer or have a lot of reactive input to the wheel. He set it in the corner and went with it already setting up for the next corner before the car was finished with the current one.

He wasn't just looking past the corner, his mind was past the corner. He drove with his mind in the future, not the present. I'm sure others have some of that ability.

Thinking more about it, take Senna. He was in the present always wringing everything he could get out of the car. Worry about the next corner if he got through this one. Only an observation.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Zeke

take Senna......

I remember seeing steering traces from Senna compared to whomever his teammate at the time was. Teammate; a very few smooth, gentle corrections. Senna; lots and lots of spiky back and forth inputs throughout the entire corner. Every corner. Every time. Apparently Lauda was the same.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Thinking more about it, take Senna. He was in the present always wringing everything he could get out of the car. Worry about the next corner if he got through this one. Only an observation.

Odd. I recall reading something (published) that said the opposite; that while most drivers would think 1 or 2 corners ahead, Senna would be thinking 3 or 4 corners in the future.

[oldE]

I think the difference here is between strategy and tactics. Any good driver is ahead of the car on the track, planning moves and lines. However since grip levels and fuel loads are constantly changing, someone driving on the ragged edge is constantly making corrections to deal with things which are immediate.
Prost on the other hand seldom drove faster than he needed and was perceived as being very smooth.

Best
Les

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by oldE

I think the difference here is between strategy and tactics. Any good driver is ahead of the car on the track, planning moves and lines. However since grip levels and fuel loads are constantly changing, someone driving on the ragged edge is constantly making corrections to deal with things which are immediate.
Prost on the other hand seldom drove faster than he needed and was perceived as being very smooth.

Best
Les

And after I posted I realized that all Indy 500 drivers are committed at entry and only have to get their mind set for the next entry because once they turn in that's the beginning, center and roll out all in one movement. Probably looking briefly at the wind sock ahead as the car exits.

Then there's traffic. It would seem that the article about Senna had more to do with planning WRT traffic. IDK why else a driver needs to be that far ahead of the car. I just know the MS committed and rode it out, most of the time perfectly. Same as the Indy car. If not near perfect, the wall bites. A driver was gonna hit the wall no matter what if at that precise turn in wasn't already perfectly planed and executed.

Notwithstanding sudden changes or failure. You've all seen that bad pass that didn't work.

[rfuerst911sc]

Those were some good qualy sessions . Will be interesting if the pole winner can convert to a race win . RB updates were rumored to be good for another 2/10ths . But their DRS performance is stellar . Another solid run for both McLarens . Danny Ric beats Tsunoda in qualy . KMag slowly working his way out of a Haas seat .

[astrochex]

How about those Alfa’s? Has to be the biggest surprise.

[GH85Carrera]

I am not a fan of the new limit for tires, and the qualifying on mandated tires for a session like they did. Yea, I understand cost savings, but in F1 tip of the spear engineering, it is out of place.

I bet they could save lots more money if they gave all the drivers just two sets of tires for the entire weekend. My car tires last for many tens of thousands of miles. Just put them all on street tires with treads, and just 10 gallons of fuel for the "race" and we can all watch an economy run, max speeds of 55 MPH speed limit and watch the fans die of boredom.

The new rules certainly jumbled up the order for the qualifying. Mercedes on pole and in 20th, weird.

[URY914]

Danica has a great agent.

[rfuerst911sc]

What a dominant performance by the winner . Solid day for McLaren and Mercedes . Ferrari have to find pace . Danny Ric out performs Yuki . Alpine on suicide watch !

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

What a dominant performance by the winner . Solid day for McLaren and Mercedes . Ferrari have to find pace . Danny Ric out performs Yuki . Alpine on suicide watch !

Very dominate performance for sure.

I wonder what one of those huge bottles of Ferrari "champagne" they spray at each other cost? It was interesting to see the fans picking up pieces of rubber clag from the track as they went to the trophy presentation. I am almost surprised the F1 owners don't claim it all as theirs, and charge for hunks of F1 tires left on track.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I am not a fan of the new limit for tires, and the qualifying on mandated tires for a session like they did. Yea, I understand cost savings, but in F1 tip of the spear engineering, it is out of place.

I bet they could save lots more money if they gave all the drivers just two sets of tires for the entire weekend. My car tires last for many tens of thousands of miles. Just put them all on street tires with treads, and just 10 gallons of fuel for the "race" and we can all watch an economy run, max speeds of 55 MPH speed limit and watch the fans die of boredom.

The new rules certainly jumbled up the order for the qualifying. Mercedes on pole and in 20th, weird.

They should give drivers in the bottom 5 in the standings the option to take the next softest tire in the allocation, so if a driver makes it to Q2, they can take a soft instead of a medium tire. That said, it would be unfair for drivers in places 10 to 15.

[red 928]

Here's an idea:
Make one tire design for dry and one for wet.
everyone uses the same tire with no more soft or medium crap
Tell them they can use all the tires they want
want as long as they pay for them.
Problem solved.

all this complicated regulation and manipulation
is impotent and will ruin the sport.

Management by committee is for idiots.

[WPOZZZ]

Gotta love Vegas! https://nypost.com/2023/07/23/f1-threatens-to-block-las-vegas-clubs-race-views-unless-they-pay-millions-sources/

[917_Langheck]

The current tire specification is exactly what Pirelli was told to make. 2005, during a "tire war" Bridgestone and Michelin made tires that had to last the whole race.

Pirelli's mandate was to make a tire to cause pitstops and order changes. The sustainability argument is specious at best, and political at worst.