F1 2023

[Captain Ahab Jr]

[herr_oberst]

Who knows, maybe Vegas will erase any desire for F1 to continue racing in Miami...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Glen, ignoring any hurdles with getting an entry, the odds are so heavily stacked against Addretti/GM ever being in a position of winning in F1

Don't want to sound negative , it's just the cold, hard, reality I see ahead of both companies for at least the next 5yrs or probably more like 10yrs

You're in the biz and right in the heart of it so I believe you. I just want to say that once understanding what is required to get a job done, the U.S, has been able to produce some amazing equipment. I mean if GM brings in NASA (read all of our defence contractors) engineers and has something to work from, they will produce.

I don't know much about the Andretti/GM entry. What chassis are they planning to debut with?

I might add that it is my thinking that GM will be more than engines. They can justify building the most state of the art wind tunnel along with the sundries that anyone has ever seen.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I might add that it is my thinking that GM will be more than engines. They can justify building the most state of the art wind tunnel along with the sundries that anyone has ever seen.

They'll have the same budget as everyone. I'm not sure how much extra they'll have as a startup, but they'll be hamstrung just like everyone else in the quest for parity.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

They'll have the same budget as everyone. I'm not sure how much extra they'll have as a startup, but they'll be hamstrung just like everyone else in the quest for parity.

Oh, and they won't cheat. No one does that.

But you're relating this to money only. I'm relating to the talent pool that is available. Sure, at a price. But what does Northrop pay when they are always bidding for work? I thing GM can match that and use the budget wisely.

Sure, I have no idea of the rules, but GM allocating time in their wind tunnel for F1 has to be a little more than keeping an eye on Red Bull Racing. Anything GM builds has, as Captain says, the potential to evolve the core business, transportation. What does Red Bull do there?

A lot, I'm sure but having Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM in racing has to trickle down technology. Now the new thing to avoid the budget restrictions might be 'trickle up'.

Did you know that new shape of the turn signal stalk was going to be a suspension arm?

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Did you know that new shape of the turn signal stalk was going to be a suspension arm?

I get it. Hell, even Williams sells technology to customers. Not a very far reach to wonder if some of those employees are working on the F1 car surreptitiously.

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

They'll have the same budget as everyone. I'm not sure how much extra they'll have as a startup, but they'll be hamstrung just like everyone else in the quest for parity.

Maybe so. But is GM just happens to build a new zillion dollar state of the art wind tunnel for the new Corvette the F1 team can rent it for 50 bucks a day. It is just sitting there unused so $50 a day is a good price!

How many engineers does GM have? Can they do a lot of work, share that with the team, and let the F1 team "discover" a new way to do something?

GM invented the new magnetic fluid shock absorbers that is used worldwide in many cars. Detroit engineering can well be at the cutting edge.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

Detroit engineering can well be at the cutting edge.

Toyota had the same advantages. Was it hubris? Misunderstanding the culture of F1? I don't know, Maybe Capt. Ahab has some insight. Either way, they left after spending billions with very little to show for it.

I'm hoping Cadillac jumps to the front of the field. I'm just keeping my powder dry. And it's no secret that I wish they were going into F1 with anyone but Andretti.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Toyota had the same advantages. Was it hubris? Misunderstanding the culture of F1? I don't know, Maybe Capt. Ahab has some insight. Either way, they left after spending billions with very little to show for it.

I'm hoping Cadillac jumps to the front of the field. I'm just keeping my powder dry. And it's no secret that I wish they were going into F1 with anyone but Andretti.

Andretti knows how to manage a racing business. IDT Hass had that education inspite of being the huge company they are. Michael Andretti has probably never pulled the handle of a drill press.

He is successful.

Hass had to hire Gunter or whoever he is. One thing for sure he's not Coach Gibbs.

[herr_oberst]

And speaking of wind tunnels, There are lots and lots of regulations regarding them in F1.

Red Bull and Mercedes and Ferrari would scream bloody murder if F1 just let GM borrow the full size Corvette wind tunnel while no one was using it.

(Now, testing windshield wiper stalks using the latest CFD, that's something else altogether!)

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Andretti knows how to manage a racing business. IDT Hass had that education inspite of being the huge company they are. Michael Andretti has probably never pulled the handle of a drill press.

He is successful.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on Andretti. Of the three best teams in IndyCar he's consistently on the last step. Even with a driver who's supposedly the reincarnation of Ayrton Senna and Jimmy Clark combined.

(And Ganassi and Penske have other major projects that are also at the sharp end of whatever other racing series they happen to be involved with)

Andretti is successful. Penske and Ganassi are wildly successful. Red Bull and Mercedes are on a whole 'nother planet.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

My thinking is, Andretti and GM will find achieving wins a very tough process due to their limited access to the talent pool of F1 specialist engineers/F1 specialist suppliers because of their geographical location and also both companies have zero experience of working in F1

Winning in F1 is almost an impossible task but not impossible so hope Andretti and GM prove all the doubters wrong even if they're making their impossible task even more impossible

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

My thinking is, Andretti and GM will find achieving wins a very tough process due to their limited access to the talent pool of F1 specialist engineers/F1 specialist suppliers because of their geographical location and also both companies have zero experience of working in F1

Winning in F1 is almost an impossible task but not impossible so hope Andretti and GM prove all the doubters wrong even if they're making their impossible task even more impossible

I suspect you are right.

Back in the glory days of NASA when they were working on going to the moon, engineers from all over the world came to NASA for jobs that did not exist anywhere else. Canada saw a huge "brain drain" of the best of the best because to be part of the going to the moon was the place to be for engineers. No doubt they can hire a few engineers, but the best already have good jobs closer to family and friends.

[rfuerst911sc]

If given the chance I would not discount the expertise of Andretti/GM . Both have tremendous racing experience . Both have been successful . They understand chassis setup and aerodynamics . GM knows how to build engines .

Would they win right out of the gate ? Of course not . Is there a chance they are competitive out of the gate ? Absolutely . I have no doubt a well run and funded American team can be competitive and add value to the series .

Adrian Newey was once an unknown engineer that had to carve a niche in the auto engineering arena . There are others like him out there yet to be discovered . Find one or two and you have the nucleus to start something great . You just never know .

[astrochex]

What I will be curious to see is the level of tolerance for team performance.

You can’t discount what the Captain says, its going to be very difficult for a start-up to have the people and produce a car and the processes to be competitive. They are going to have to nail the details from the start.

Its going to be a fascinating ride and I wish them the best.

[rfuerst911sc]

^^^ I agree . We are all just talking and giving opinions . It means nothing unless they are granted a spot on the grid .

But I have to believe the team of Andretti/GM would perform better in their first 5 years than Haas has . Again just an opinion .

[URY914]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

But I have to believe the team of Andretti/GM would perform better in their first 5 years than Haas has . Again just an opinion .

That won't be hard to do......and just an opinion.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

No way I'm under estimating Andretti, GM or the caliber of USA engineering expertise

It's the level of relevant previous experience and location of each company I'm questioning

Much more knowledgeable folk on here than me,

Does anyone know if Andretti/GM have enjoyed recent success in world championship level motorsport where both chassis and engine are exclusive to their team

Not thinking of categories where a homologation chassis is used ie Indy, IMSA etc

[GH85Carrera]

Captain, there is no doubt you know more about this than all of us regular mere mortals combined. You have been there, done that. Many companies over the years thought they could throw enough money at a problem and win. Many left embarrassed. Honda sold their team for single dollar. I suspect the Red Bull Team is valued a bit higher.

HAAS is pretty much an embarrassment, but they are not alone at the bottom of the heap, and they share the bottom with teams that have been winners in the past.

It does seem strange to me that GM does not just by out or into the HAAS team and start there.

[GH85Carrera]

And of course there is comedy!