Whole house generators

[Baz]

One of my clients just had one installed.

I have a nice portable which suits my needs, but 3 of my 4 neighbors all have whole house units that kick on automatically when the power goes out, which really isn't all that often - only during storm season.

I took some pics of the one my client got and looks like they are going for $5,747.00 at Lowes.

I have no idea what size I'd need but I bet the one they installed would do just fine because my house is smaller than theirs. I know an electrician would know but I'm not at the point I want to get one so for now just wondering if it would be a good idea.

I have Natural Gas in the back not far from my electric meter and inside of that my electric box so wouldn't be a big deal to install. I know I'd need to change out my electric box because of the inferior breaker design (Federal Pacific) so that would have to also be done.

I'm interested in others opinions here on brands, sizes, and personal experiences and opinions. Thanks!

Here are a few pics.....

[Baz]

Adding to my first post - I guess a transfer switch would also be needed. I will see what my client has for theirs next time I'm there and they are around.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by Baz

I know I'd need to change out my electric box because of the inferior breaker design (Federal Pacific) so that would have to also be done.

Don't mean to hijack your thread with the first reply, but my understanding isn't just that Federal Pacific breakers/boxes are inferior, it's that they can be downright dangerous.

_

[A930Rocket]

I thought about one, but I’ve never gotten around to it on the last supper home so I built.

Edit: I thought of something I need to do tomorrow, but got busy and forgot what it was. Then I read the words generator switch and remembered I needed to take one down to a house. Thanks, Baz!

[BRPORSCHE]

We bought a place with the a generac 20kw. Pretty much identical to that one baz. I'm not calling your client an idiot, but why not put it on a better foundation? Mine is on a slab. I wouldn't want anything shifting when it comes to gas lines and vibrations. Also, aren't you on the FL coast? I'd raise that up several feet.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Norm K

Don't mean to hijack your thread with the first reply, but my understanding isn't just that Federal Pacific breakers/boxes are inferior, it's that they can be downright dangerous.

_

OK thanks, Norm!

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

I thought about one, but I’ve never gotten around to it on the last supper home so I built.

Edit: I thought of something I need to do tomorrow, but got busy and forgot what it was. Then I read the words generator switch and remembered I needed to take one down to a house. Thanks, Baz!

Ha - you're welcome!

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

We bought a place with the a generac 20kw. Pretty much identical to that one baz. I'm not calling your client an idiot, but why not put it on a better foundation? Mine is on a slab. I wouldn't want anything shifting when it comes to gas lines and vibrations. Also, aren't you on the FL coast? I'd raise that up several feet.

That's a great point. I will mention it to my client when I see them. We're on the coast yes. My house sits atop a dune ridge so no worries there. My client's house is right on the Intercoastal Waterway and it has flooded the streets there so maybe that's why they put their generator up on blocks.

Thanks, Tom!

[Racerbvd]

I am also considering this, looking forward to what others have done.

[Evans, Marv]

I'm still on the fence. Can't make up my mind about batteries or generator. I talked to Red Beard a few years ago. He said he sold some good generators powered by detuned, 4 cylinder automotive engines. I'll also be lookiing at diesels when the time comes, if it ever does. I have a 10kW Genrac that powers some lights, fridge, freezer, & a couple of other things. So far it's been OK for the small number of outages we have.

[Skytrooper]

I am planning on getting one this year. We lose power here fairly regularly. The wife and I discussed solar, but all the companies want to tie it in to the grid. When the grid goes down, so does your solar. A pretty stupid system. NY probably has a hand in this, because I just cannot see why anyone would go for this.
Anyway, a generator is our best plan for dealing with the power losses. Plus, we already have a 500 gallon propane tank that we used for our pool heater.
We live below a drumlin ( look that up in your Funk & Wagnells) so ground water is not a friend, although it is good for the well. If we lose power for an hour, the basement starts to flood. No juice for the sump pump.
Now that I am retired, it is easier to keep an eye on it, but dragging the portable generator out of the barn and hooking it up is less than pleasurable.

[flatbutt]

Since Hurricane Sandy slammed us a few of my neighbors had the Generac installed at a total cost of about $10K. They swear by them but since Sandy we haven't been without power for more than a day. I can do that much time with candles but YMMV. For longer stretches my Honda 6kw does just fine.

[red-beard]

Generac, Kholer and Briggs & Stratton and even Champion are all good brands. Champion the max size is around 12kW.

The price looked good at first, but it does not include the ATS. But the prices are WAY up! I'd add about $1K for the Transfer switch. You also need to figure at least $2K for the electrical hookup and $1-2K for the plumbing hookup, depending on the distance.

Getting your electrical service replaced at the same time will definitely get the attention of an electrician. You might get a discount for the work. Get several estimates. Some of the generator install companies have the plumbing and electrical on staff or they have "captive" contractors.

I also recommend you have soft starts installed on your Air Conditioners. Soft starts are NOT PTCs or hardstart kits. These lower the inrush current to about 1.5 times running current. I run a 16 kW generator and these allow my generator to start and run both of my Air Conditioners (4 ton and 3.5 ton). I really like the Hyper Engineering units.

Hyper Engineering | Home

On size, the 20-22 kW air cooled units are the most cost effective. They are also quieter than the smaller air cooled units. The units that start at 25kW and up are usually water cooler and are derated GM vortex car engines.

All of these generators are designed to run for 100 hours between oil changes. They prefer high quality synthetic oil. Keep oil, oil & air filters and spark plugs on hand for changes. You really should change the oil and filters every 100 hours of operation or at least once per year. This matches with your car oil/filter changes. 3000 miles at 30 miles per hours = 100 hours! You can get away weekly changes during longer emergencies, but I recommend it. Some people just don't know and they might run for weeks and kill the generator.

BTW, portable generators without oil filter need their oil changed every 50 hours!

[cabmandone]

I know several people that have one like the one pictured. They're REALLY nice when they're needed. The problem, if it can be called a problem is, they aren't needed very often. I remember my parent's generator running for a week or so several years ago after a derecho. You wouldn't have known the power was even out had it not been for hearing the generator run. Everything, well pump, central air, lights, fridge, freezer, all worked as though nothing had happened.

[astrochex]

We have had a Generac for a couple years now. Fuel is propane from a 250gal tank. I will take pics and get costs after work today.

[rfuerst911sc]

If cost is no issue I would prefer a water cooled unit vs air cooled. Water cooled are quieter and can run for much longer without issues. I would not rule out a clean used unit .

Size: obviously you need to add up all the load to figure out the size . Having said that are you REALLY going to run everything at the same time ? Example: you are surviving through a nasty storm . Power has been out for 24 hours .

Are you going to run the AC/heat , water heater , well pump , microwave , coffee maker , oven , washer/dryer at the same time ? I highly doubt it . My point is I believe the " average " home can get by with a 12k generator and a little bit of load management.

A smaller generator uses less fuel . Is that important ? Well look up fuel consumption for a 20k LP generator. If you have a 500 gallon tank which only holds 400 gallons and you are out of power for a week you are out of propane .

A clean and safe transfer switch install is a must, the last thing you want is to endanger the life of a utility line worker . Manually controlling load via breakers is simple enough but may not be for everybody .

[red-beard]

It is not always about load management. Some things take a lot of power to startup. Even with soft starts, my larger A/C unit pulls about 50 amps to start.

Without a soft start, look at the LRA number on the A/C. Multiply this by 230 and then by 70% to get the starting Watts. If your LRA IS 125 Amps, your starting Watts are 20,000 Watts!

With a softstart, that will be reduced to about 6000 Watts.

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by red-beard

It is not always about load management. Some things take a lot of power to startup. Even with soft starts, my larger A/C unit pulls about 50 amps to start.

Without a soft start, look at the LRA number on the A/C. Multiply this by 230 and then by 70% to get the starting Watts. If your LRA IS 125 Amps, your starting Watts are 20,000 Watts!

With a softstart, that will be reduced to about 6000 Watts.

I wish more people understood that. Everytime we have an outage here the restart trips 2 or 3 times because people haven't turned off enough major appliances.

[greglepore]

Originally Posted by red-beard

It is not always about load management. Some things take a lot of power to startup. Even with soft starts, my larger A/C unit pulls about 50 amps to start.

Without a soft start, look at the LRA number on the A/C. Multiply this by 230 and then by 70% to get the starting Watts. If your LRA IS 125 Amps, your starting Watts are 20,000 Watts!

With a softstart, that will be reduced to about 6000 Watts.

Are you a dealer for the soft start units? Ballpark cost?

I've got a 15 yo 12kw unit, will run it another couple years, but really want 20k ish.

[Googam]

We installed an almost exact Generac model whole house generator in 2015. It was my best investment ever. Here on St Simons if you evacuate, you can't get back on the Island for at least 5-6 days, as they clear the roads for traffic. Mathew in 2016, power was out for 6 days, Irma 2017 out for 5 days. We also lose power a couple times a year due to tropical storms. We live in one of the oldest sections of the Island & most electric still comes from power poles. Powers go out for 20 seconds, transfer switch kicks in, the whole house comes on. When they run at full tilt, they can be noisy. You can hear them throughout our neighborhood. I will point your, your pics show a very bad pad installation. These big generators rock & roll when they run for extended periods. & those cinder blocks will settle & move over time. Those connections will be damaged. My pad is 6" of poured concrete over 4" of compressed stone. Ours is natural gas. Don't trust running out of propane for extended usage. They require maintenance. They are basically a small engine (oil, filters, air filters). Good luck

Brad

[ErVikingo]

Generac 30k LPG connected to a dedicated emergency panel which allows us to switch from day mode to night mode (HVAC in common areas vs sleeping areas). 1000 gallon sunken tank, contract to refill every 3 months (with a fillup in august for peak season).

Never an issue. Went with Aluminum enclosure. $10K with switch at HD plus install. Rebate gave me a Generac pressure washer.

[stomachmonkey]

Red, would you weigh in on multi fuel options?

I've considered a whole home as well but the issue, as you know from two years ago, NG is apparently not as reliable in Texass as we've thought it is.