Paging Dr. Higgins: Model 1892

[Superman]

The chances I will need to defend a stage coach from Indian attack are low, but never zero. Accordingly, I wonder if it would be prudent for me to own a 20"-barrel Model 1892 in .45 LC. Now manufactured by FN Herstal (Belgium). It could use the same cartridges as my New Vaquero and could perhaps also use the high-pressure loads my pistol cannot use. Some readings seem to suggest this new 1892 can handle ridiculous pressures. Educate me Jeff, and also offer your personal assessment and recommendations.

For extra credit, speak to me O Wise One of loads and pressures for my New Vaquero and my Springfield Armory tactical 1911. The data I am seeing for these is ambiguous. I am pretty sure the single-action can handle the Buffalo Bore 255-gr, 566 lb/ft "Keith," and perhaps it can handle anything that will physically fit into the cylinder, but the pressures I see people spouting are inconsistent. Not that ballistics forums could possibly contain erroneous advice. And finally, those forums also seem to suggest the 1911 might handle slightly higher pressures than the New Vaquero. I find some of this surprising in addition to confusing.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

The chances I will need to defend a stage coach from Indian attack are low, but never zero. Accordingly, I wonder if it would be prudent for me to own a 20"-barrel Model 1892 in .45 LC. Now manufactured by FN Herstal (Belgium). It could use the same cartridges as my New Vaquero and could perhaps also use the high-pressure loads my pistol cannot use. Some readings seem to suggest this new 1892 can handle ridiculous pressures. Educate me Jeff, and also offer your personal assessment and recommendations.

I believe these are still made by Miroku in Japan. Which is a good thing; I have two Miroku made Winchesters (M 1886 and M 71), and I consider them of actually better quality than the ones made in America.

M 1892's are wonderful rifles. Hell for stout, being essentially a "mini 1886" with its massive twin locking lugs. It will safely accept any pressure level available in .45 Colt. Note that it is also chambered in .44 mag, which runs higher pressures yet than even the stoutest .45 Colt loads.

The newly manufactured examples have finally corrected the problem with their rifling twist rate. The .44 and .45 caliber versions now have a 1:26" twist, where they formerly had 1:38" (a holdover from the .44-40 and .38-40). That slow twist would not adequately stabilize heavier bullets, sometimes even failing to stabilize 240-250 grain bullets. The faster twist fixes that.

Originally Posted by Superman

For extra credit, speak to me O Wise One of loads and pressures for my New Vaquero and my Springfield Armory tactical 1911. The data I am seeing for these is ambiguous. I am pretty sure the single-action can handle the Buffalo Bore 255-gr, 566 lb/ft "Keith," and perhaps it can handle anything that will physically fit into the cylinder, but the pressures I see people spouting are inconsistent. Not that ballistics forums could possibly contain erroneous advice. And finally, those forums also seem to suggest the 1911 might handle slightly higher pressures than the New Vaquero. I find some of this surprising in addition to confusing.

Yeah, the shooting forums on the internet are probably one of the more dangerous incarnations of these anonymous forums. Way, way too many utter morons espousing some very, very dangerous "advice". They are best avoided. Stick to published data from reliable sources.

That said, there is probably more disagreement over what is "safe" in the various firearms chambered in ,45 Colt than in most others. The problems stem from the wide variety or so chambered firearms available. Essentially, there are "Colt safe" (as in original Peacemakers in good condition) and "Ruger only" loads. Some break it down further, but those are the two most widely recognized groupings.

"Colt safe" means standard pressure loads. Some will inch into "+P" territory, which can be done with modern examples, but the performance gains in no way approach "Ruger only" levels. We can get 250 grain bullets up to about 1,000 fps with these loads, where "Ruger only" loads can exceed 1,300 fps with 250 grain bullets.

Where it gets muddy is with guns like your New Vaquero. Even though it is a Ruger, it will not accept "Ruger only" loads. Ruger makes two sizes of single action frames, the Blackhawk / New Vaquero (which are about the same size as the Colt), and the Super Blackhawk / Vaquero (preceding the "NEW" Vaquero), which is substantially bigger. And stronger. It was in these guns that we developed these "Ruger only" loads. Don't use them in your New Vaquero. It will accept "+P" Colt safe loads, but not these "Ruger only" loads.

As far as higher pressures in the .45 ACP, I can think of no better example of why I avoid shooting forums. These idiots are going to hurt someone. Yes, there are "+P" loads available and listed in reputable manuals. Those are safe in 1911's. The loads these clowns espouse that approach +P .45 Colt levels of performance are not.

The 1911 platform has one major shortcoming that limits pressure. The IPSC crowd pushed this limit with their hot-rod .38 Super loads in the 1980's. They wanted to "make major", and pushed pressures to the breaking point. Some of them got hurt. This "weak spot" is the unsupported bottom rear of the chamber, the little scallop that serves as a feed ramp. It leaves the bottom part of the case web area unsupported, relying on the solid part of the case head to fill this gap. It does that job just fine at standard pressures, maybe +P pressures, but not at the pressures these clowns are touting. They will blow that part of the case out, maybe the magazine right out the bottom of the grip, and even the grips right off the gun (this is where everyone gets hurt).

So, no, don't listen to these guys. Standard pressure loads in the .45 ACP have been discouraging bad guys for longer than either you or I (or even our parents for that matter) have had a need to do so. No reason to push its limits.

[Superman]

Thank you Sir.

I know the regular (non-"New") Vaqueros have longer cylinders. There are .45 cartridges that will not physically fit in the cylinder of my New Vaquero. And so...I wonder if i can assume that any store-bought cartridge I can find is 'good to go' in my New Vaquero. Answer that, or just steer me to where I can find reliable data regarding pressures, both for loads and for the New Vaquero.

Regarding Winchester lever guns, I know the 1892 is designed for pistol loads and others are set up for actual rifle loads. But I wonder if the stoutest .45 Colt pistol loads would be 'good enough.' I don't plan to take down elephants at 600 yards but I wonder if an 1892 would summarily dispatch any North American game animal at open sight distances.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Superman

Thank you Sir.

I know the regular (non-"New") Vaqueros have longer cylinders. There are .45 cartridges that will not physically fit in the cylinder of my New Vaquero. And so...I wonder if i can assume that any store-bought cartridge I can find is 'good to go' in my New Vaquero. Answer that, or just steer me to where I can find reliable data regarding pressures, both for loads and for the New Vaquero.

Generally you will see for sale

"Cowboy Action" loads which are very low velocity low pressure loads, safe to shoot in anything including my BP revolver if I get a conversion cylinder. Intentionally loaded wimpy for low recoil, etc. and mena for the cowboy-action shooting crowd.

Regular plain old 45LC ammo - this is the "standard pressure" stuff, suitable for any factory chambered 45LC gun in good condition.

The 45LC +P stuff - still "common" or "standard" factory stuff (Remington offered it, unsure of who else) but at the upper ends of pressure levels for the round.

The "specialty" loaders - Buffalo Bore, etc - that offer either heavier-than-standard bullets or higher than standard pressures or both.

But from what I last saw the cheapest you are paying is over $1 per for factory loads. You can reload 'em for 40-50c ea or so, even having to buy components at current prices. And reloading straight wall pistol cases is really easy.

Regarding Winchester lever guns, I know the 1892 is designed for pistol loads and others are set up for actual rifle loads. But I wonder if the stoutest .45 Colt pistol loads would be 'good enough.' I don't plan to take down elephants at 600 yards but I wonder if an 1892 would summarily dispatch any North American game animal at open sight distances.

Pistol loads vs. rifle loads you aren't gonna see from the factory, other than the specialized loaders who will load Ruger/Freedom Arms level loads etc. Even then I'm sure a Ruger No 1 in 45 LC (I'm sure they've made one too, I know they've done a 44mag) could handle anything a Ruger Redhawk/Super Redhawk can handle and then some. Everything else is "SAAMI Spec" due to lawyers (these days) and plain common sense (you buy a rifle and pistol in the same caliber in order to share ammo)

Just going from a 4-7" pistol length barrel to a 16" rifle barrel will give you a boost on velocity, even with the wimpy loads - http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html. If the accuracy was there, I wouldn't hesitate to go after a deer or pig out to 50 or 100 yards wtih a 45LC lever gun (if that was all that was available, I've never liked lever guns for some reason and have never had the desire to own or even shoot one). Beyond 100 though and the ballistics start falling like a rock (heh).

I'm not sure of any published pressure info for factory ammo, but the site I use for reloading data lists pressures. Really cool that you can filter by bullet weight (and powder type if you are actually reloading) and they have different areas for round-appropriate loads like rifle vs. pistol and subsonic loads or in the 45LC case Ruger/Contender/Freedom Arms vs. others vs. cowboy action loads - https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/45-colt/

[Por_sha911]

Look at the difference between the two cylinders.
The thinner walls between chambers is a fairly good way to tell you can only shoot SAMMI pressures.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

Thank you Sir.

I know the regular (non-"New") Vaqueros have longer cylinders. There are .45 cartridges that will not physically fit in the cylinder of my New Vaquero. And so...I wonder if i can assume that any store-bought cartridge I can find is 'good to go' in my New Vaquero. Answer that, or just steer me to where I can find reliable data regarding pressures, both for loads and for the New Vaquero.

You cannot make that assumption. The loads that will not physically fit into your New Vaquero cylinder exceed SAAMI specifications for length. Some manufacturers of high pressure "Ruger only" loads are reluctant to exceed that specification. Which I find interesting, because they are willing to exceed pressure specifications (SAAMI does not recognize these "Ruger only" loads, only standard pressure loads).

The Freedom Arms single action, most familiar in its .454 Casull chambering, has a "short" cylinder. This revolver is also available in .45 Colt, and is obviously capable of handling the hottest of those loads available. Many of those hot .45 Colt loads are meant for this revolver. I find that insane, since these will fit my Peacemakers as well. Pretty irresponsible, in my estimation.

So, no, I'm afraid cartridge length is not a safe indicator. I wish it was. That's how I do it - my high pressure hand loads will not fit in the cylinders of my Colts. I sleep better at night because of that.

Originally Posted by Superman

Regarding Winchester lever guns, I know the 1892 is designed for pistol loads and others are set up for actual rifle loads. But I wonder if the stoutest .45 Colt pistol loads would be 'good enough.' I don't plan to take down elephants at 600 yards but I wonder if an 1892 would summarily dispatch any North American game animal at open sight distances.

I would not hesitate to hunt with it at "woods" (or open sight) ranges. Hell, I have killed a number of various game animals with standard pressure loads out of my Colt revolvers. Add the velocity gained from a rifle barrel, along with the ease of shot placement, and things can't help but get even better. Yes, full sized rifle chamberings like the .45-70, or even the .30-30 offer some notable increases in "power" and range, but within about 100 yards or so? I'd be happy to carry a lever gun in .45 Colt. Remember, the old .44-40 and .38-40 firing their 200 and 180 grain bullets respectively, at about 1,300 fps, have accounted for more than their fair share of game. And the .45 Colt, with its standard 250 grain load, brings slightly more performance to the table. So, yes, absolutely.

[Superman]

Thanks muchly to all!

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

.... cartridge length is not a safe indicator....

This is what I needed to hear, thank you. And this also means I need to learn more about safe pressures for the New Vaquero. I wonder if there is a definitive, reliable 'safe pressure' spec for this handgun.

After doing some searching, I am forming the impression that this information does not exist. It looks like Ruger rates this gun as simply "meet SAAMI" spec. So, officially, the New Vaquero is limited to SAAMI standard-spec pressures.

Alright. I have no intention of playing with a handheld device that might explode. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid. Buffalo Bore says their 'heavy' load meets standard spec. This is a 255 gr projectile at 566 lb/ft moving at 1000 fps. This is a little greater than cowboy loads, but not that much greater.

Bottom line: I have been advised this load can be trusted in the NV, and I am inclined to conclude this is true. Jeff, if you think I am taking chances here then say.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

...Remember, the old .44-40 and .38-40 firing their 200 and 180 grain bullets respectively, at about 1,300 fps, have accounted for more than their fair share of game. And the .45 Colt, with its standard 250 grain load, brings slightly more performance to the table. So, yes, absolutely.

This is comforting, thank you. But here again, I wonder if I am asking a question for which there is no definitive answer. The question might look like this: Will a new Winchester 1892 chambered in .45 Colt handle ANY commercially available .45 Colt Round? Including any of the whiz-bang "Ruger only" loads? If so, then those loads through a 20" barrel would deliver a fair bit of muzzle velocity even with a fairly big heavy bullet.

Again, thanks to all. I don't even expect answers to all my questions. Just reporting my curiosity and appreciating any guidance or suggestions for further research.

And maybe this is just something I could learn more about by buying Dr. Higgins a beer.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

Thanks muchly to all!

This is what I needed to hear, thank you. And this also means I need to learn more about safe pressures for the New Vaquero. I wonder if there is a definitive, reliable 'safe pressure' spec for this handgun.

After doing some searching, I am forming the impression that this information does not exist. It looks like Ruger rates this gun as simply "meet SAAMI" spec. So, officially, the New Vaquero is limited to SAAMI standard-spec pressures.

Alright. I have no intention of playing with a handheld device that might explode. I may be dumb but I'm not stupid. Buffalo Bore says their 'heavy' load meets standard spec. This is a 255 gr projectile at 566 lb/ft moving at 1000 fps. This is a little greater than cowboy loads, but not that much greater.

Bottom line: I have been advised this load can be trusted in the NV, and I am inclined to conclude this is true. Jeff, if you think I am taking chances here then say.

From what I understand, yes, this load is safe in your New Vaquero. It's even safe in newer Colts in good condition. My own "heavy" load that I use in my Colts drives a 270 grain hard cast lead bullet from RCBS mold #45-270 SAA (Single Action Army) at just about 1,000 fps from my Colts. Remember, the original civilian load of 40 grains of black powder driving a 250 grain bullet achieved 1,000 fps. With the correct slow burning smokeless pistol powders available today, we can safely duplicate those ballistics in the Colt, which is not as strong as the New Vaquero.

And no, Ruger (nor anyone else) will ever rate their firearms for pressures exceeding SAAMI specifications. To do so would be foolish in today's legal climate. Even their "full size" Super Blackhawk sized .45 Colt is only rated for SAAMI spec loads.

Originally Posted by Superman

This is comforting, thank you. But here again, I wonder if I am asking a question for which there is no definitive answer. The question might look like this: Will a new Winchester 1892 chambered in .45 Colt handle ANY commercially available .45 Colt Round? Including any of the whiz-bang "Ruger only" loads? If so, then those loads through a 20" barrel would deliver a fair bit of muzzle velocity even with a fairly big heavy bullet.

Again, thanks to all. I don't even expect answers to all my questions. Just reporting my curiosity and appreciating any guidance or suggestions for further research.

The new Winchester Model 92 will safely accept any and all heavy .45 Colt loads available today. This includes loads driving 300 grain bullets over 1,200 fps from revolvers. The rifle will do much better than that, making it a very effective "woods" caliber.

Originally Posted by Superman

And maybe this is just something I could learn more about by buying Dr. Higgins a beer.

Maybe...

[Superman]

Thanks Jeff, for the nice chat and for answering all the questions I asked and several I should have asked.

Until next time....

[Jeff Higgins]

My pleasure.

[herr_oberst]

The information administered here has been entertaining as well as enlightening. There are some really good writers on this board, but I can't just allow the glossing over of what might be one of the best opening sentences of a thread since I've been on Pelican:

"The chances I will need to defend a stage coach from Indian attack are low, but never zero."


If I were a plagiarist, I might be tempted to steal that line, If I were a writer.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

The information administered here has been entertaining as well as enlightening. There are some really good writers on this board, but I can't just allow the glossing over of what might be one of the best opening sentences of a thread since I've been on Pelican:

"The chances I will need to defend a stage coach from Indian attack are low, but never zero."


If I were a plagiarist, I might be tempted to steal that line, If I were a writer.

Supe and I discussed that possibility over a beer (or two...) just yesterday afternoon. I tried to convinced him I had had occasion to do so just last week, but he appeared skeptical. Oh well...

But that's not why I'm writing this. Talk about "timing", or "karma", or whatever one wishes to call it - the February issue of Handloader magazine was in my mailbox literally awaiting my return home yesterday. In this issue, one Brian Pearce answers just this very question for a subscriber.

The subscriber has a Ruger New Vaquero, a Marlin 1894 (their pistol caliber lever gun, similar to the Winchester under discussion), and a 13 year old daughter. Who wants to hunt deer with the Marlin. The guy was asking what a maximum safe load for the New Vaquero might be, and how much faster it might be in the Marlin.

Well, Brian answered right there in print that the New Vaquero is safe for +P loads up to 23,000 psi (standard .45 Colt is limited to 14,000 psi). He listed loads for the 250 grain Hornady XTP and Speer Deep Curl bullets that all exceed 1,100 fps from the New Vaquero. Some of these loads only increased to 1,300-ish fps from the 20" rifle barrel, but one exceeded 1,500 fps.

These are "hotter" than I have ever used in my own New Vaquero, but I've always erred very much on the side of caution with these heavy .45 Colt loads. I'm somewhat heartened to learn that I have been well, well within bounds with my own loads.

Granted, my own "Ruger only" 300 grain loads exceed 1,300 fps from a revolver, but I'm not willing to share those with anyone. They cannot be found in any reputable manual. These loads, as I explained to Supe yesterday, were developed by a small, tight knit cadre of shooters in the '80's and '90's. Shared by post card, letter, and phone call. A couple had access to laboratory pressure testing equipment, so we know they are safe, but I'm sure they would raise a few eyebrows.

While Mr. Pearce was not involved in any of that, his data is considered "the word" on modern .45 Colt loading. He has access to the Western Powders laboratory, so all of his data is pressure tested. So now we have definitive numbers, from the best source available today.

[Superman]

It was two, Jeff. I counted.

Hm. Here, and to Jeff's face yesterday, I declared my intention of staying WELL within safe parameters with my New Vaquero, a Winchester 1892 if I buy one, and any other firearm for that matter. I have literally never gambled. But here is food for thought. Jeff says Brian Pearce's data is the definitive word on modern .45 Colt loading. Brian says 23,000 psi is safe. Again: Hm. My busing card said "Statistician" and indeed, truly, odds are in fact never zero. Decisions like using these hot loads in a New Vaquero are unavoidably based on how much risk one is willing to accept. Odds such as a popular confidence 95%? That sounds confident, but it also means failures are 1:20. Not nearly good enough. 1:100? 1:1000? I'm not even sure how a confidence interval could be calculated from ballistic "data." As I mentioned to Jeff yesterday, data I would consider reliable would need to go beyond "We tried it 150 times and there were no failures" or even "We tried it 1500 times and there were no failures." The more reliable "data," in my view, would come from a competent engineer's calculations of the firearm itself, and cylinder wall thicknesses and pressures and vibrations and whatever needs to be included in those calculations. And even then, the calculations would in fact also involve a confidence interval. One more time: The chances of a failure are technically never zero. But sometimes they are close enough. Me? I'd want those chances to be lower than the likelihood I will need to defend a stage coack from Indian attack.

I also mentioned to Jeff that the lst thiing I need right now is another complex hobby obsession rabbit-hole. Do I really want to wade into ballistic data sets?

Hm.

I read the article, and have questions.

[Superman]

Jeff, is my New Vaquero the same as, or at least the equivalent of, the "Ruger New Model Blackhawk built on the Flattop 50th Anniversary-style frame.....built on the 357 frame size?" Are we talking apples to apples here?

Finally, this information about pressures up to 23,000 psi may be moot for someone like me who lacks handloading equipment (and skill, for that matter). Commercially available +P .45 Colt loads appear to largely be the dangerous rounds you mentioned that will physically fit in my New Vaquero but which generate dangerous pressures (higher than 23,000 psi).

[Jeff Higgins]

Yes, the New Model Flat Top is equivalent to the New Model Vaquero, strength wise. The Flat Top is merely the adjustable sight version of the fixed sight Vaquero.

Mr. Pearce has, in fact, consulted with the engineers at Ruger prior to announcing to the world that the New Vaquero (and Flat Top) are rated for +P ammunition up to 23,000 psi. He would never make such a proclamation without having done so.

So, engineers work a bit differently than statisticians. When we are told an item must accept "X" load, we typically design it to accept at least 1.4X. In the case of firearms, the "maximum safe working pressure" is typically 60% or less of the pressure required to induce catastrophic failure. When operated within their safe working pressures, we expect firearms to never fail. We expect them to last several lifetimes, with neglect, corrosion, and other abuses leading to their demise, not excessive pressures.

Imagine if bridges were built with a 99.9999999% chance of "success". That would be unacceptable. We design and build in margins that ensure they will never fail. Same with firearms. You will never hear a ballitician saying "this should work"...

[Superman]

That's good news Jeff, and it makes sense. Also, I learned a new word.