Replacing My Main Panel

[Superman]

Schwartz633 shows an elegant solution on Page 1.

For the reasons cited above and some others, I too would recommend hiring an EC if the panel really needs to be changed. I am not convinced it does need to be changed.

In Washington, homeowners can do their own electrical mods but there still needs to be a permit and inspection. Power does need to be shut off and unless there is a disconnect between the panel and the meter, then I think this means pulling the meter, which then involves the power company.

Originally Posted by jyl

Jeez. Even I know you are supposed to have a tidy panel with parallel wires all easily traced at a glance.

Inspections can fail for "workmanship" reasons if the installation is ugly enough, but this is not common. In my experience, inspectors are perhaps more likely to refuse approval on "workmanship" bases where the installer was a licensed professional, compared to a homeowner. Those guys should know better, and the inspectors in my state seemed to hold them to a higher standard.

One last time: If your existing panel is a modern 200A panel, the consider another sub panel. Even if, like Schwarz633, it is a big sub panel. Also, it sounds like those basement circuits could just be consolidated. Wire nuts are allowed in main panels.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by jcommin

It has all been cleaned up. But the upstairs is all Knob/tube and will need replacing. The dining room on the first floor is Knob/Tube as well.

Might want to start watching those lathe-n-plaster repair videos.

I got rid of my K-T at the pre1900 rental a few years back and it took a week or so.
Most of the lathe was drywall already.
Put 20amp outlets in every kitchen for microwaves, bathroom for hair driers, bedrooms for space heaters and stand-up a/c.
Not cheap but well worth it.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Superman

Schwartz633 shows an elegant solution on Page 1.

One last time: If your existing panel is a modern 200A panel, the consider another sub panel. Even if, like Schwarz633, it is a big sub panel. Also, it sounds like those basement circuits could just be consolidated. Wire nuts are allowed in main panels.

Oh, that is something I haven’t considered. Yes, in terms of amperage, some of the excess circuits could surely be combined. I need to read up on how it is correctly done, though. Do I bring two hots of 120 v circuits together in a pigtail then connect to a single breaker, etc.

[Zeke]

It's not as simple as combining "hots" but it isn't that difficult. You need to know what you are combining. You mentioned a few individual circuits in the basement. IDK what's in the basement but lights should be separate. And you can put a lot of lights on one 15 amp circuit, like 20.

You should know the load is though. All LED's are going to be a smaller draw. The point is, if you have a resistant heater in a bath, that's one circuit. If you have receptacles in the bath and there will be hair dryers, curler warmers, a towel warmer and a milkhouse heater, obviously more juice is needed.

Most wall recep's are in groups of up to 15 or so on one circuit, but you wouldn't and can't do that in the kitchen. So if you have a huge entertainment center, don't be hooking up a couple of power strips to a dozen devices. Put some recep's in that wall with a couple circuits dedicated to that. BTW, it's a good idea to run a 'clean' ground to those that doesn't combine with others; a home run for the ground, neutral and hot and you will hear less electrical noise on your gear.

Many recep's in your house, like the one required for a hallway more than 10' long will be used for a vacuum cleaner and that's it. Many others will only see occasional use. It's good to know those and not waste circuits not needed.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by jyl

Oh, that is something I haven’t considered. Yes, in terms of amperage, some of the excess circuits could surely be combined. I need to read up on how it is correctly done, though. Do I bring two hots of 120 v circuits together in a pigtail then connect to a single breaker, etc.

What Zeke said. Also, as Zeke hinted, there is something you need to know if you are combining 120V circuits. Trace the incoming cables and connections.....right down into the hot and neutral busses which are behind the circuit breakers, notice there is one neutral and two hot circuits. Between either of the hot circuits and the neutral, there are 120 Volts. BETWEEN THE TWO HOT CIRCUITS THERE ARE 240 VOLTS!.

What this means for you is that if you combine two black wires coming from breakers, there is a 50% chance there will be zero Volts between them, AND A 50% CHANCE THERE WILL BE 240 VOLTS BETWEEN THEM.

So....don't do that. Sorry for shouting.

However, if you are consolidating circuits then you are not combining black wires coming from breakers. Instead, you are combining black wires coming into your panel from your house. Combining those black wires should work....subject to the limitations Zeke mentions. You are probably twisting three wires into a wire nut. Two of them energize circuits you want to combine, and the third one goes into the circuit breaker. Easy Peezy, subject to considerations like keeping lighting circuits separate from outlet circuits, and also considering the current draw through those outlet circuits.

What I don't know is whether an electrician would feel the need to also identify and combine the matching neutral (white) wires for those circuits you are combining. I wouldn't think this would be necessary, but with electricity there can be surprises. I would feel comfortable not combining those neutral wires. Just leaving the white wires alone.

[schwarz633]

If you're combining circuits and/or even moving circuit breakers you have to be aware of the possibility of two circuits "sharing" a neutral. These are called a multi-wire branch circuits. The dead give away will be a 3 wire romex connected to two circuit breakers. But if you've got conduit things can get a bit elusive.

Each of these circuits needs to be on opposite legs of the panel. Breakers across from each other will be on the same leg, but on alternating legs from top to bottom. If you don't do this, there is the potential of overloading the neutral by 2X. I believe in recent times the two breakers needed to have a handle tie between them, but it wasn't always like this.

Also, if you disconnect the neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit you will send 240V across both 120V circuits in series. Depending on the balance of loads on these circuits, each of them may see anywhere from 0-240V and something will get toasted. Ask me how I know.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by jcommin

.......

Originally Posted by Zeke

Let's have a contest. How many violations can you count? I'll enter my answer later. And you probably can't see some so neither can I. But I'll start with the nutted bare ground wires.

Wow. The small gauge wires under the same lugs as the feed is major problem. Those wires/circuit is unprotected. I probably wouldn't sleep in that house until they are removed.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by schwarz633

If you're combining circuits and/or even moving circuit breakers you have to be aware of the possibility of two circuits "sharing" a neutral. These are called a multi-wire branch circuits. The dead give away will be a 3 wire romex connected to two circuit breakers. But if you've got conduit things can get a bit elusive.

Each of these circuits needs to be on opposite legs of the panel. Breakers across from each other will be on the same leg, but on alternating legs from top to bottom. If you don't do this, there is the potential of overloading the neutral by 2X. I believe in recent times the two breakers needed to have a handle tie between them, but it wasn't always like this.

Also, if you disconnect the neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit you will send 240V across both 120V circuits in series. Depending on the balance of loads on these circuits, each of them may see anywhere from 0-240V and something will get toasted. Ask me how I know.

My house was re-wired with Romex. I haven’t come across any MWBC but will check more carefully for it.

Thanks for this discussion and suggestion. If I can combine some circuits then I may not need to expand at all.

Thinking about it, I just need to free up room in the main panel for two new 240 v circuits (one for each dual head minisplit) and one more 240 v circuit (to move my espresso machine from the subpanel into the main panel).

The purpose of moving the espresso machine to the main panel is to have all the circuits I want to run through the generator transfer switch together in the main panel, to make the transfer switch wiring tidy. I want the generator to power the heater furnace blower, water heater blower, espresso machine, kitchen lights, kitchen outlets, range (gas range but needs power for convection oven), and maybe one other circuit that my internet and WiFi will be on.

So during power outages, I’ll be warm, have hot showers, internet, be able to cook with the gas range, and be able to pull shots and make lattes and tea. Circuits allowing, I may wire up a single exterior outlet so as to afford my neighbors a grudging extension cord so they can charge their phones as they huddle miserably in their cold houses, BwaaHaaHaa!

[jyl]

Originally Posted by dad911

Wow. The small gauge wires under the same lugs as the feed is major problem. Those wires/circuit is unprotected. I probably wouldn't sleep in that house until they are removed.

Is that rust on the bottom of the Panel From Heck?

[rockfan4]

Originally Posted by jyl

The purpose of moving the espresso machine to the main panel is to have all the circuits I want to run through the generator transfer switch together in the main panel, to make the transfer switch wiring tidy. I want the generator to power the heater furnace blower, water heater blower, espresso machine, kitchen lights, kitchen outlets, range (gas range but needs power for convection oven), and maybe one other circuit that my internet and WiFi will be on.

I guess I'm not following you here. Wouldn't it make more sense to install a sub panel off the main panel, and put all the circuits you mention above on that panel? Then you'd just start the generator (auto-start?) Disconnect the utility feed, and connect the generator output? (auto transfer switch?)

How big of a generator are you installing? Auto start or manual? Do you plan on switching the load manually or automatically?

[jyl]

Originally Posted by rockfan4

I guess I'm not following you here. Wouldn't it make more sense to install a sub panel off the main panel, and put all the circuits you mention above on that panel? Then you'd just start the generator (auto-start?) Disconnect the utility feed, and connect the generator output? (auto transfer switch?)

How big of a generator are you installing? Auto start or manual? Do you plan on switching the load manually or automatically?

Well, all the circuits I want to power with the generator are in the main panel, except the espresso machine. It seems like it'd be a bit of a pain to move them to the existing subpanel, and move the circuits on that subpanel to the main panel. Doable, but as the wires won't reach, there'd be junction boxes scattered around. Ditto with installing a new subpanel.

For now, I'm using a Harbor Freight 9500, and will start the generator and switch the load manually. We don't get power outages that often - once or twice a year, in winter, usually for <24 hours but we did have a four day outage a couple years ago. Normally we just deal with it, though we moved to a hotel for the longer one. My 88 y/o dad is living with us now, though, so the consequences of a power outage feel a little more significant to me - so, I want to be able to keep the house warm etc.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by john70t

Might want to start watching those lathe-n-plaster repair videos.

I got rid of my K-T at the pre1900 rental a few years back and it took a week or so.
Most of the lathe was drywall already.
Put 20amp outlets in every kitchen for microwaves, bathroom for hair driers, bedrooms for space heaters and stand-up a/c.
Not cheap but well worth it.

I didn't want to hijack this thread. My point is depending on the work scope, getting a vetted, licensed professional is my recommendation. The panel was just an example of previous work done awfully (I'm being kind here).

Most of the first-floor walls and ceiling have been replaced with drywall. The upstairs is all plaster. This is a row house and both brick outside were plaster. My son refurbished all of the original glass windows. In doing so he had to remove the surrounding plaster and to find a plaster person is difficult and expensive. He ultimately removed the plaster from those walls and used drywall. The remaining ceilings and interior walls are plaster. This is going to be a big job. I am working on a scope of work for this phase.

I can also tell you the quality of wood used over 100 years ago is impressive. The arms of those carpenters had to be huge. The work was done without todays power tools.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by schwarz633

If you're combining circuits and/or even moving circuit breakers you have to be aware of the possibility of two circuits "sharing" a neutral. These are called a multi-wire branch circuits. The dead give away will be a 3 wire romex connected to two circuit breakers. But if you've got conduit things can get a bit elusive.

Each of these circuits needs to be on opposite legs of the panel. Breakers across from each other will be on the same leg, but on alternating legs from top to bottom. If you don't do this, there is the potential of overloading the neutral by 2X. I believe in recent times the two breakers needed to have a handle tie between them, but it wasn't always like this.

Also, if you disconnect the neutral on a multi-wire branch circuit you will send 240V across both 120V circuits in series. Depending on the balance of loads on these circuits, each of them may see anywhere from 0-240V and something will get toasted. Ask me how I know.

If he doesn't know this then stopping the idea of a DYI is paramount.