EVs didn't get better, ICE cars just turned to fat lard

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by aschen

Light, cheap, efficient doesn't really sell here, its not the mfg fault.

Honda fit, Nissan versa, Fiesta.....these are cars that would have been unheard of performance and efficiency wise in the 90s compared to similar size and placed offsets.

Rav4 outsells corolla and even the Camry.

The people have spoken with thier dollars, it sucks, but they want big.

Speaking of Camry, they are all hybrid starting next year: Huge and heavy compared to ye olden cars but dead nuts reliable, reasonably priced, 50mpg. Why should people buy something smaller other than fun?

I disagree. If you only produce X, you will only sell X. If you produce substantial amount of X and a little Y (being a small eco box with a manual Bruce Jenner). X will always out sell Y. We’re of course negating regulatory reasons why small ecoboxes are not readily available at a reasonable price point.

For example. How many manual transmission vehicles are for offered for under 25k? None in North America….

[aschen]

Were Fits for example ever hard to get? I don't think so. They couldent give away fiesta sts at the end of run I know. Such a cool little manual car.

[CurtEgerer]

[masraum]

Originally Posted by aschen

Light, cheap, efficient doesn't really sell here, its not the mfg fault.

Honda fit, Nissan versa, Fiesta.....these are cars that would have been unheard of performance and efficiency wise in the 90s compared to similar size and placed offsets.

Rav4 outsells corolla and even the Camry.

The people have spoken with thier dollars, it sucks, but they want big.

Speaking of Camry, they are all hybrid starting next year: Huge and heavy compared to ye olden cars but dead nuts reliable, reasonably priced, 50mpg. Why should people buy something smaller other than fun?

I've tested a couple/few base Versas and Corollas over the years when car shopping with the kids and they were deathly boring and scary slow. I assume you'd have to buy one of the uprated models to get a reasonable car to drive in todays traffic.

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

I disagree. If you only produce X, you will only sell X. If you produce substantial amount of X and a little Y (being a small eco box with a manual Bruce Jenner). X will always out sell Y. We’re of course negating regulatory reasons why small ecoboxes are not readily available at a reasonable price point.

For example. How many manual transmission vehicles are for offered for under 25k? None in North America….

Part of the money making proposition is the ability to make a bunch of something after you've developed it (big costs) and tooled up to make it (more costs). To recoup those costs and then make enough profit, you've got to make a bunch (or charge more | make more profit per unit).

[KNS]

I keep hearing people on this thread saying "Americans want big cars and trucks". Some do yes, but many don't. Some want a basic work truck, they don't need or want the monstrosities that are offered right now. But the choices are slim.

If the Hilux was sold here it would be very popular.

oldE hit the nail on the head - the manufacturers have figured how to get around the fuel economy standards (vehicle footprint). Make it Bigger! One of the reasons the 911 has gotten so large. If Porsche makes the 911 wheelbase and track bigger they can lower the mpg demands. The current 911 is a whale and I have no desire to own something so huge.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by oldE

Manufacturers, trying to sidestep fuel economy demands for passenger automobiles have pushed the market to SUVs. They have made the big arsed mobile roadblocks into " better deals " and marketed the heck out of them because the standards are more lax.

Best
Les

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/car-design/a33490594/suv-chins-dodge-regulations/

Just like you didn’t realize that the dreaded 28-degree line that’s ruining your SUV’s front end means it was subjected to less stringent crash and safety regulations. We’re talking about approach angle here. Looking at any vehicle from the side, visualize a straight line beginning at the leading edge of the front tire contact patch, then extend this line forward just steeply enough that it grazes the lowest surfaces of the vehicle. That line’s deviation from horizontal, measured in degrees, is the car’s approach angle, the maximum steepness of a ramp that it can approach without making contact with any part of the vehicle.

If this angle cuts a peculiar line into the front end that seems completely out of place with the rest of the design, it’ll result in that SUV overbite. Chances are that line is exactly 28 degrees to horizontal, because 28 degrees of approach angle is the minimum required by law for a vehicle to be considered a “non-passenger automobile.”

[masraum]

Originally Posted by KNS

the manufacturers have figured how to get around the fuel economy standards (vehicle footprint). Make it Bigger! One of the reasons the 911 has gotten so large. If Porsche makes the 911 wheelbase and track bigger they can lower the mpg demands. The current 911 is a whale and I have no desire to own something so huge.

Are you sure that the statement above is true?

I have read that once you get over 6000# there's a tax benefit for a vehicle used for business (not personal use).

I don't think that increasing vehicle weight means that you are then allowed to get worse fuel economy. I don't think 911s have gotten heavier in the desire to be able to reduce fuel economy. As a matter of fact, Porsches mostly increase fuel economy over time. The reason why Porsche has been shrinking engines and adding turbo chargers is to increase fuel economy.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by KNS

I keep hearing people on this thread saying "Americans want big cars and trucks". Some do yes, but many don't. Some want a basic work truck, they don't need or want the monstrosities that are offered right now. But the choices are slim.

There it is.

All the guys my age are pivoting to smaller trucks...there are some really excellent ones on the market.

I have purchased two new cars in the last 10 years, a Tundra followed by a 4Runner six years later.

I ordered the Tundra with as few gadgets as possible. I wanted seat heat, because, and that meant they wanted me to step up to the next grade of "stuff": So I ordered leather seats, paid 1/3 of what the "Super Tundra" trim would cost and that was that.

It will be my last 1/2 ton...the 1/2 ton manufacturers may be missing the point for my market segment: if I wanted to be a long haul truck driver I'd own a Freightliner. My Land Cruiser is almost diminutive next to 1/2 tons. On the Interstate or pulling trailer, the Tundra is excellent. Parking lots? Nope.

The 4Runner, my wife's car was easy: Buy it and turn all the nanny stuff off.

All that said, automobiles today are so superior in terms of safety and performance over the gradu I grew up with it is comical. I'll eat the weight penalty in some areas directly tied to safety of occupants.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

There it is.

All the guys my age are pivoting to smaller trucks...there are some really excellent ones on the market.

I have purchased two new cars in the last 10 years, a Tundra followed by a 4Runner six years later.

I ordered the Tundra with as few gadgets as possible. I wanted seat heat, because, and that meant they wanted me to step up to the next grade of "stuff": So I ordered leather seats, paid 1/3 of what the "Super Tundra" trim would cost and that was that.

It will be my last 1/2 ton...the 1/2 ton manufacturers may be missing the point for my market segment: if I wanted to be a long haul truck driver I'd own a Freightliner. My Land Cruiser is almost diminutive next to 1/2 tons. On the Interstate or pulling trailer, the Tundra is excellent. Parking lots? Nope.

The 4Runner, my wife's car was easy: Buy it and turn all the nanny stuff off.

All that said, automobiles today are so superior in terms of safety and performance over the gradu I grew up with it is comical. I'll eat the weight penalty in some areas directly tied to safety of occupants.

The new full size trucks seem HUGE compared to trucks from 30-50 years ago. I've wondered about the hauling capacity of the ranger and canyon. How do their beds compare to the full size trucks?

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by aschen

Light, cheap, efficient doesn't really sell here, its not the mfg fault.

Speaking of Camry, they are all hybrid starting next year: Huge and heavy compared to ye olden cars but dead nuts reliable, reasonably priced, 50mpg. Why should people buy something smaller other than fun?

Definitely not the Mfg. fault, considering the federally imposed requirements...the point several here are making.

The news makes me glad Cindy's base 2016 Camry has around 22,000 on it's odo...at our ages, we're fortunately probably done buying cars.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by masraum

The new full size trucks seem HUGE compared to trucks from 30-50 years ago. I've wondered about the hauling capacity of the ranger and canyon. How do their beds compare to the full size trucks?

I'm still driving my 20 yr old F150 because it looks tiny when I pull up next to a newer, bigly F150 and what they now offer .... pass .

If it weren't white .... they could cremate me in mine... but I'm sick of a white truck ... yeah, yeah .... I know

May take the sucker to Maaco and have them "fix it"

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

No one here will be around. I’ll stick with ICE and let my great grandkids worry about electric.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by aschen

Were Fits for example ever hard to get? I don't think so. They couldent give away fiesta sts at the end of run I know. Such a cool little manual car.

Those cars aren’t a mk4 alh tdi that will make it to 400k+ miles with a manual transmission and get 45mpg while doing it (4,000lbs car mind you)... 4 door sedan, hatch, wagon. Regulation killed that platform.

Fit were too small almost a kei car. Fiesta is comical. DOA POS. Let’s discuss the ford transit connect. Made in Britain. Too bad they don’t come with the diesel.

My argument still stands. Price point and regulation.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by masraum

The new full size trucks seem HUGE compared to trucks from 30-50 years ago.

[pavulon]

RIP Habu's

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15097317/flyin-miata-habu-mx-5-v-8-test-review/

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by rcooled

Looks like a 70 grand truck vs 15 grand for the 90’s Chevy.

[Tobra]

What I want to buy is not offered in this country.

They are not selling people what they want, they are selling what has the best profit

[WPOZZZ]

I like my Tesla as I use it as an appliance. The Camry of EVs! I figured, I might as well get my feet wet and give it a whirl. Actually, I am quite impressed by it. Instant torque, smooth riding and very quiet. All the tech takes some getting used to. Hawaii has high gas and electricity prices, and even then, my "fuel" expenditures are 1/2 to 1/3 of my ICE cars. Mind you, I pay $0.43 kw at home. Fast chargers are anywhere from $0.49 to $0.57 kw.

[kochtools]

Originally Posted by Arizona_928

This universe or the next parallel one. Pros and cons.

https://benklesc.medium.com/they-dont-make-tires-like-they-used-to-the-forgotten-world-of-bias-ply-742c43672daa


I have a set of bias plys on a 54 f100 that have been on it since the 80’s. Still holding air and not dry rotted.

Same conditions, I’ll be 5 years for a set of radials to be trashed.

It would be easy to say that you have no idea what you are talking about. Or questioning you what "dry rot" means in a technical sense. More enlightening would be you telling us about that F100 and how many miles you have put on those tires ... whether the truck was loaded or were you just cruising around ... or if it was just sitting in the garage and you moved it once in a while.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Tobra

What I want to buy is not offered in this country.

They are not selling people what they want, they are selling what has the best profit

I don't think that many people care that much. I'll bet most folks want something that looks nice (and that's subjective) that they can afford.

We are automotive enthusiasts, so we have many, many more criteria about what we'd like/want in a car than the other 98% of the population.