"I double dare you to cross this line!!"
:D :D :D

Don't forget, Gruppe B has naked women!

Or, that is the EXACT reason why someone with any degree of self worth wouldn't give a rat's ass about belonging to!

just to clarify...the SCWDP does have a small underground web presence in the form of a weblog: http://nostatic.com/blog/scwdp.php

We now return you to our regularly scheduled mud slinging...

Chiming in here in support of RGruppe. I also waited for a few months to get an answer from Cris. I was persistant in getting an answer and when I did it was with much apologies from Cris. I learned that he seems to be spread pretty thin.I joined because my car fit the criteria and I had been restoring my car for a few years and spent most of those missing the Cambria runs. When my car was ready my wife and I went to the Monterrey gathering and met some great people and had a great time. I saw cars there that were mostly pre73's (some bone stock) but mostly the hotrods that I like, and a coulple of 914's and a couple of 74-75 carreras, plus other Pcars. I suppose if I had a SC or a Carrera I would join them in their group of friends. Or if i had a hot-rod or a model t I would join their ranks too.
There have been some un-answered questions that Ted asked of exc911ence regarding specifics on his quest for membership that could clear this whole matter up.
I really enjoy the maturity of this board but this thread has brought out the worse in some.
This thread has become " I hate Harleys or Boxsters because I never have own one."

I'm feeling a bit of shock & awe here. Hell, give the guy his $50 back and hope there are no hard feelings. R Gruppe is simply not an "organized" club...no real officers other than Cris, no monthly newsletters, just gatherings of guys who appreciate the early 911 and it's "sports purpose" roots. If it's newsletters & stickers you need? Yep, there are other clubs. R GRuppe's "newsletter" is actually an annual of sorts, usually sent out after the main event of the year, a gathering on the California coast...SmileWavy

for the first two years since sending my application and payment i never got a sticker, or number or any formal acknowledgement. but i don't place too much value on clubs or acknowledgement anyhow. even if your not in the club you can still go to the events, see the cars (and various outlaws). there's nothing spiritual about being in a club. the spirit lives in your heart and mind, not from being a member. steve mcqueen and james dean had spirit and were loners or what we sometimes refer to as "outlaws". they did just fine knowing what they believed in and not leting the world or any club tell them what was "proper". being humble and greatful goes a long way. my 912-6 (outlaw car) was not accepted by any porsche clubs. but, i did not make it to be in a club. i made it for me. if chris says your in rgruppe, you can have my sticker and i'll pay the postage. who knows, i may have been "kicked-out" and just don't know it. at least i met some nice folks and saw some cool cars. hope you get what you want - kurt

So then, what's the 50 bux for?

Hmmmm. This is just what you would _THINK_ a super secret organization would have.

I mean, James Bond seemed to find 1/2 of all his clues because they had Olympic rings on everything or match books with the super secret organization's symbol on them...

Maybe I should join all 3 and play each off against each other...

Mark,

I respectfully disagree. This has not become a case of I hate anything because I've never owned one. We are all Porsche owners with differing tastes and interests. This is a debate over two things:

1. I entered this discussion because I found it absurd that anyone would defend the performance of R Gruppe after they receiving membership dues from someone they invited to join. Calling a guy, in essence, a whiner because he responded to this thread and shared his experience in response to the question posed by the author seemed rather harsh. Exc911ence is entitled to express his opinion and detail his experience on this thread whether Ted likes it or not.

2. Does R Gruppe maintain arbitrary or subjective standards for granting membership? Anyone who requests membership in an organization that advertises exclusivity better be prepared for possible rejection. Personally, I have built my car to my tastes and specifications. I don't give a rat's ass what R Gruppe members or anyone else think about my car. However, if R Gruppe rejects applicants because of subjective standards, then don't expect the rejected to have glowing remarks if the matter comes up on an open forum. They will assuredly be labled a bunch of snobs. That is simply the reality.

Do I like early cars? Yes, very much. Do I like other models and years? Yes there too. Would I request membership in R Gruppe, whether or not I owned an early 911, after what I have read here? Not likely. Worst of all, so few R Gruppe members have even made the attempt to put themselves in a better light in response to this criticism.

all kidding, mud slinging, and flames aside, well said lothar.

Kurt V,
wait yer tellin me GruppeB has NAKED GALS!!!!!? I just joined gruppe B where are the Gals!?
ladies?

am I missing somthin?:D ;)

This thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If exc911ence sent in a check, and it was cashed, then he can pretty safely assume he's a member. If not, he can pretty safely assume the issue hasn't been decided yet, or that he's out, and doesn't have to worry about the check getting cashed.

I've been a member of R Gruppe for a long time. I don't have a sticker, and I don't think I ever got any email confirming it. The group is mostly a local-to-California affair, and most of the confirmation/delivery-of-stickers stuff is handled when you're at the annual meeting, or one of the informal events like at EASY or German AutoFest. If you're expecting a regular stream of ancillary items in your mailbox, you're going to be disappointed. It's just Cris trying to take care of all the details.

I know the group felt that it was losing something after the Excellence Magazine article, when it seemed everybody and his brother decided it would be cool to join the R Gruppe. Suddenly, there were a lot of members who didn't actually participate in the group's events. In response to this, it was decided to trim the ranks so that membership in the group would mean something more than simply owning an early 911. The thing that makes the group fun is having active, participating members. The R Gruppe is not a registry, or even much of a club -- it's really just an excuse for 300 guys to go tearing around the countryside in early 911s. It also gives them an excuse to stand around in a parking lot every so often, sharing information about modifying the early cars.

At least, that's my opinion. I don't hold any kind of administrative position in the R Gruppe -- because there aren't any administrative positions in the R Gruppe. If you expect a lot of pomp and circumstance, then there are other groups that do it better. It's literally one guy doing all of the administrative stuff in his spare time.

Maybe it comes down to what exc911ence assumes as part of his membership. Membership/ID card? Decoder ring? Glossy brochure? Schedule of his initiation rite? Concours calendar? Dunno, but there isn't any. Email confirmation? I guess a prompt reply would have been nice. Maybe he's busy.

All I can say is, if Mr. Huergas acknowledged you as a member in good standing (for whatever reason), you are a member. If the numbers are now too great for him to manage efficiently (without a staff, btw), take it easy. It's not the end of the world. Don't take it as a personal rejection. This is not a club as some erroneously describe it. It's a bunch of guys with early 911s. There is a subtle difference.

If you attend any R Gruppe event, no one's going to ask for your ID. However, they will check out your ride, but primarily your attitude. If the latter has too much of it, then that's what's not acceptable (to me). Perhaps Mr. Huergas incorrectly assumed your attitude coincides with what R Gruppe is all about. I'd wait a bit and try email again, or just ask for a refund.

Personnally, all I want is an email notification of the next event. But I can get that from the bulletin board(s) which are very much public. So there is nothing exclusive to membership except that elusive member number ... if that's what turns you on.

My $.02
Sherwood Lee
I don't remember my no.

hmmmm...okay i've got something to say in re: to cris' character and the RGruppe.

met cris a couple years ago at EASY. we always chatted for great lengths. it was early in my p-car ownership and i was just buying parts. didn't know that there it was an RGruppe meeting, didn't know what Rgruppe was, didn't know who cris was. i just knew i was talking to the guy with the car i admired the most cause it was similar to what i wanted to do.

during our conversations he became interested in my project and i was gathering ideas most of which had to be postponed due to the costs of repairs.

cris helped me in getting my tranny rebuilt by a reputable person for a huge savings to me. when it was done - he stayed past midnight on a weeknight to help me put it back into my car.plus he had to drive another 40 miles to get home. truth be told - i really didn't know him well enough to ask him to go to such great lengths.

he accepted no money - just a couple beers.

there is something on the their website about helping out youngs guys new to ownership...and he firmly believes in that according to his actions.

when this is all said and done it will probably come down to a simple misunderstanding - until then it's a shame to see this "internal" fighting amongst ALL 911 owners.


RGruppe for life

Jack,

What you said about the purpose or mission of the club seems very reasonable. We have organized similar events in North Carolina without having a club, web site or dues. However, there is nothing wrong with having a small, manageable and organized membership.

What I find unreasonable is letting a cancelled check serve as the club's only response. Other clubs and organizations vary dramatically in their initiation procedures and level of corespondence. In my opinion, checking to see if my check got deposited is below a minimum standard for a club that asks for $50.

As a member of a local credit union, I don't even receive a cancelled check and, until recently, had to make a special request that took about a week. Now I can view the check by means of an online members area.

Sherwood,

"Membership/ID card? Decoder ring? Glossy brochure? Schedule of his initiation rite? Concours calendar?"

Not having these items for a small group is perfectly acceptable. They don't contribute much, if any, value anyway. You're right, however, this was about expectations. I don't think a minimum standard was acheived.

Except for the last couple of posts, not much has addressed the original question, "What is RGruppe?"

RGruppe is about cars first, drivers second. It is about cars being modified to the owners' tastes without fear of repercussions from the purists' stand point. It's about driving instead of dusting off the car every half hour on somebody's lawn. The early cars are the stars of the gruppe; they do the talking for the owners. Sure it's social, but it's a low profile, non attitude answer to the anal side of P-car ownership often exibited by guys like me who drive Boxsters :D

How do I know all this? I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

BTW, I have red spark plug wires on on my 2.2. What more *attitude* can you expect?:rolleyes: SmileWavy

I used to be an R Gruppe, but bailed about a year ago. All the pressure to attend events or be ostracized became too much, so I tendered my resignation. I can belong to the PCA or SCCA, and not attend any events, and they'll never send my an email like a received from the R Gruppe. I don't have any hard feelings at all, but just didn't need the hastle. I may have attended a couple of R Gruppe events at best... family always comes 1st, and that includes vacation time. I've got a couple of R Gruppe type vehicles that I've owned since before R Gruppe was even born. They'll still be R Gruppe type cars whether I belong to the R Gruppe or not. I wished I could have attended a Cambria event, but never could rustle up the spare days. I still enjoy talking with local R Gruppe members (e.g Randy Wells, Randy Jones, Jeff Smith) when I run into them. I really dig the R Gruppe cars. What more can I say? One thing that really did bug me was their credo.... something like "some people just don't get it". For some reason, that really struck a nerve with me... in a bad way. But it's a free country, and I really don't lose any sleep over not being part of the R Gruppe.

I live to autocross, club race and do track events... none of which the R Gruppe does much of?

OK, I made my bed and now I'm sleeping in it but here goes... I never meant anything negative towards Cris and the RGruppe, I'm sure it's all on the up-and-up. Cris himself asked me to join, and I thought that it would be fun to be part of a group of similar minded 911 enthusiasts, regardless that I'm several hundred miles to the North. I sent in a money order which is traceable, if need-be, but all I expected was an e-mail confirming that he had received the cheque and details/photos that I sent. Is that too much to ask? As for some of the RGruppe guys that I've met online, I'm sure (I hope!) that they don't speak for the rest of the Gruppe!

As for my "mildly" modified 912, it eats 911's alive on the track as many found out the hard way at Portland. Watch what you say about other's cars... you'd have better luck getting away with insulting a person's mother!

"Worst of all, so few R Gruppe members have even made the attempt to put themselves in a better light in response to this criticism."

Lothar,
You assume so many of this exclusive society hover around here to respond. They don't. What better light should we aspire to? I am not responsible for anyone's actions except for myself. If I see an overwhelming number of *********s in this group, I will excuse myself. So far, I haven't seen too many examples of it. However, I did hear of one situation at the last German AutoFest where someone (member?) acted unacceptably. Poor reflection on R Gruppe? Possibly, as he drove in with a group. Poorer reflection on his upbringing - Probably. Don't ask. I don't know who it was nor the exact circumstances.

Sherwood

I too am writing in support of R Gruppe. Back in the Spring I was trading emails with another Pelican and Early S board participant Wolfturbo (Rob). We both share a passion for the '73 RS. At the time I was kind of looking for one and he had one. On a whim he invited me to come out to the R Gruppe gathering last May in Monterey. This being the 30th anniversary of the RS, Chris H. was inviting a number of original RS owners to come with their cars. I thought about it for about 1 minute and decided to go.

I showed up there not knowing anyone except Rob and we had only talked on the phone a couple of times and shared a number of emails back and forth. I had a great time! Met dozens of fellow Porsche fanatics and saw many spectacular cars. I also met Chris and fellow founder Freeman Thomas. Both very enthusiastic and cool guys. Needless to say I returned home and ended up buying an RS. Rob and I stayed in touch and he eventually asked Chris if he would consider me for membership. I was back in Monterey in August for the Historics and I met up with Chris again. We hung out together at the track, had dinner with several other guys and his wife and then went over to the Double Tree Hotel and watched a number of cars go through the RM Auction. At the end of the evening he handed me an R Gruppe and sticker and said I was in. About 6 weeks later he sent me an application which in true R Gruppe fashion is right here next to the computer (guess I should get around to filling it out and sending it back). So it seems to me that waiting for 2 months is not that big a deal, whether you sent in $50 or not (it is $40 dues for US members BTW).

I can't wait to head out to CA again next summer and hang out with the guys and drool over the cool cars. Heck I would still go even if I was not a member.

Re: What is R Gruppe?
 

Aren't you glad you asked? ;)

Hey... atleast the founder didnt sell his 911 for a Nissan Z.

Sorry Leland...I just had to throw that in there. LOL

We know you're back on the path of righteousness now.

Please do not take my comments on your car as an insult.
I think its great that your 912 does it for you.
Here is a pic of another 912 in R Gruppe.
In R Gruppe 350hp (3x your hp?) hot rod engines like this impress me too.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1065816188.jpg

man, this thread is tough! All the guys that I know in the club are nice. But like any group from time to time there will be people who don't get along. My car is not perfect and when we had our first east coast get togther not a person made me feel like my was "not good enough". In fact the range of people that I know is vast. From Don who has owned about every dream P-car there is to me with my second 911 budget project. There is something for everyone. The deal is this - we are bunch of guys who like to hotrod our cars in the old school way - less pounds and more power. My 70+ year old Dad didn't need it explained to him when I showed him the last news letter that I got from Cris. As an old hotrod guy from LA his first comment was "looks like a bunch of guys having fun". And that is how I'll end this post b/c that is what the club is about in my view.

--James

That is one SWEET looking 9 series car...


Eric

Lothar,

My point exactly, I have always felt that 99% of the people here love all porsches, as I always have. My reference regarding the Harleys and Boxsters being that I had a Boxster(and 914, 912) and am on my 8th HD, also ride bmw's and hondas and yamaha; was how some people attack them for whatever reasons they have and they have that right. I never respond trying to defend them I just chuckle at most of the threads from people who have not experienced either one. Attack bikes, cars, pipes, and paintjobs all you like but this is different.
I was only trying to defend Cris and RGruppe as I have had a good experience with both.
It's too bad that this thread might divide many here. I don't think iv'e seen this type of bull***** before. I'd rather read about rip- off ebay ads; and do we need to join that group with naked ladies???:D

I wanted to add that Bob Tilton (he posted on this thread) and Steve Turco, Jack and Cris have all gone to great lenghts to help me. In the case of Bob, he recently made a stencil of his decklid so that I could re-drill all the holes in mine which had been filled by a previous owner. He did that and then mailed it to me in a tube so that no damage would come to it. All I had to do was tape it to my decklid and drill. What did he ask for? NOTHING. I couldn't get the guy to let me pay shipping. That is the Rgruppe experience I have had. So, for those who don't like the group then fine. It is too bad b/c you are missing out on class acts like Bob and the others.

--James

it was my pleasure james. just "paying it forward" from all the great help i have recieved from ALL types of p car owners from ALL different groups. our love for these cars will always outweight our differences for their owners (tear falls to keyboard).

Over the course of the last year or so I've seen the subject of RGruppe come up from time to time, and there always seems to be a flame out happening somewhere in the thread.

Now from my point of view it always seems to stem from someone's misunderstanding of what RGruppe actually is. Then a few more guys jump in for what ever reasons and before you know it, the posse is riding around looking for RGruppe members so as to chase them out of this cyber-town.

Now as far as to the original poster's question, if it has not been answered by Sherwoods earlier provision of the proper link, here it is again: http://www.rgruppe.org/

Go there and read. that's all you have to do guys.
We (that's right, I'M an RGruppe member..) are not bad guys. I have yet to see a post on this BBS where a curious p-car owner has attended an RGruppe event, met and hung out, b.s'g with the Rgruppe guys and come away shaking his head saying to himself "jeezo...those guys are a bunch of @$$holes..!!" and for some examples, read any of the same type of posts in this thread....

Now the general flameout this time seems to stem from comments Ted made way back on page one..... well, I can see his point, It kind of raised my BP to see Cris's name being trashed and I see the point of the guy who sent Cris $50 and hasn't heard anything in two monthes...one would normally expect an answer in alot less time......but this is the RGruppe we're talking about here....

If you look back to my first post in this thread I offered to help if the thread starter would pm me and let me check which email address he used...as there are a couple of them, some Cris seems to check a bit more frequently... and others that possibly don't exist anymore... and I also said it took me 4 monthes to know if I was "in"... It was frustrating, I'll admit, but the friendships I've made thru being an RGruppe member will last the rest of my life, that I know for sure.

As has been said already RGruppe is an extremely laid back thing. There is no membership card, monthly newsletter or free t-shirt. Sometimes you get advance notice of events and there are other times it's like "Mission Impossible"...you just get the phone call the night before.

But most importantly, have faith. Cris will get back to you. To my knowledge, he has never just dropped something as important to him as a prospective member. RGruppe is his "baby" trust me on that.

Also it's kind of flattering that the newest "clique" of p-car owners decided after much, much debate (I followed the lengthy thread...) to use the word 'Gruppe" in there name. RGruppe is uniquely flattered but we must note the lack of origianlity in the decision. But hey, No harm-No foul, live & let live.


cheers !!!

I echo John's comments!

Hey Fidalgo911S give me a shout sometime. I'm in Seattle , have several early 911S's, and have a 67S RGruppe car (blue one on Gallery page).

Daytime number 206 632-5158 .
my e-mail address is elinden@earthlink.net

And that goes for anybody else in Seattle , or wandering through.

Cold beer in the fridge, either at my office (with large Porsche library), or at home. I got spare copies of "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicles Used for Sport Purposes" for those who happen to stop by (both 68' and 70' versions)......the "Bible" of the RGruppe.

Regards,
Eric

56 Speedster
59 A coupe
63 Coupe
67 911S RGruppe
67 911S project
69 911S
71 911E
73 911S

I agree with Zeke, Jack & Sherwood.

It's about fast and light on the street. That's the only exclusivity -- they let me in, so their stds. can't be very high!

I agree you should either be admitted or get a refund. Why not call Chris or send him a followup Email?

Just curious... What do you get for your $50.

SCCA and PCA membership dues cover event insurance, magazines, conventions, etc. What does RGruppe do with the $50?

"I got spare copies of "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicles Used for Sport Purposes" for those who happen to stop by (both 68' and 70' versions)......the "Bible" of the RGruppe."

Erik, do you know where I can purchase a copy of the "Bible."

Ray Crawford
RGruppe #255

easy responce
 

To be brief, some on this thread belong belong in the R Gruppe and some don't. Some get it , and some don't.

The "annual" alone is worth the price, if you ask me...;) That said, it's for the work and cost involved in putting on events. Those who have been to one of the California gatherings will understand. IMHO, Cambria '01, the last time I (alas) attended, I was reminded of PCA parades from long ago...a gathering of enthusiasts ...as opposed to a week of sales pitches...(edit)BTW, I'm not a member who attends R Gruppe functions on a regular basis. There is a personal reason why. Cris, and others who know this reason give me NO static for not being there. But you know, we do like members who are willing to show up....I see nothing wrong with that.

Re: What is R Gruppe?
 

Gruppe B is...

...all about making your Porsche what it is supposed to be...


...YOURS!

No matter what anyone else thinks.

the great thing about any club is it can decide who is in and who is out. the great thing about freedom is you can choose what you want to be involved with and what you don't.

i choose, actually i was choosen to be a member of the r gruppe and have participated in most r gruppe events for the last 3 years. if you want to know what the r gruppe is about come out to an event and participate. i will be there hanging out with ted and all of the other r guys.

Just saw this thread and felt the need to respond, as I have done in the past when the R Gruppe was discussed. I am the Washington state contact person for the R Gruppe, as Cris has begun to delegate some of his duties to keep up with issues like the one being discussed here. Unfortunately exc911ence did not reach Cris with his concerns before he posted here. Had he done that, character attacks could have been avoided and exc911ence would have had the option of being assured of membership or had his money returned. I am not defending individual R Gruppe member posts (although I agree with Jack) or the delay between the paying of dues and receiving what is promised in return (sticker, newsletter, etc.). This is a problem that Cris is aware of and is one of the reasons for his recent decision to delegate some of his responsibilities to people like me. IMO internet postings by a couple of members are not enough to make a judgement about the group as a whole, but if that's what you need to do then so be it. I will do my best to ensure that doesn't happen in the future - anyone can PM me as needed.

Moderators, are ya ready to put this one to bed? Please...