Just inherited this old gun...tell me more please

Drago · Drago's Garage

Hello all,

My Grandfather recently gave me this rifle. His Father gave it to him when he was a teenager but he passed away before my Granfather could find out the origins of the gun.

It's a Springfield Model US 1878 as far as I can tell.

Anyone want to venture what it's worth?

I'm not sure it's still operational as my Grandfather told me he used to shoot 410 shotgun shells (for bird hunting) through it. I'm assuming that firing shot through a rifled barrel is not a good thing...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

Anyway, I'd love to have her restored to operational status again.

Thoughts?

Love the sharp stick:

SteveStromberg · 10:04 AM

DONT FIRE THAT WITH SMOKLESS AMMO. it is chambered for 45-70 rounds but modern ammo has to much pressure.
It may be worth more as is than restored.

SteveStromberg · 10:02 AM

http://www.spanamwar.com/trapdoor.htm

http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/springfi.htm

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-716.html

http://www.armscollectors.com/srs.htm

pwd72s · 10-02-2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SteveStromberg
DONT FIRE THAT WITH SMOKLESS AMMO. it is chambered for 45-70 rounds but modern ammo has to much perrsure.
It may be wotrh more as is than restored.

Ditto! Antique black powder firearms are fascinating collectables, but damned if I'd want to risk firing one. Value? Steve's right on that one as well...a restoration could reduce value. This looks like one of the "place it in a case, hang it above the fireplace" rifles to me...

ejfbmw · 10-02-2004, 10:55 AM

How much does that thing weigh?

needapcar · 10-02-2004, 11:30 AM

that stick is called a bayonet. its so you can stab the bad guys when you run out of ammo

.

tabs · 11:42 AM

It's a US Springfield Military rifle generically known as a Trapdoor. Fires the 45/70 round... Yours is an Infantry Rifle with a mfg date of 1878. This type of rifle was used from 1866 through the 1890's...Spanish American War. what is nice is that U have the orginal bayonet . Your condition isn't that great, so I would say in the it falls in the $500 range...Go look up the Serial number on WWW.armscollectors.com/srs/htm.

The top $$$ ever paid for a Trapdoor Carbine (US Cavalry use)...was proven forensically to be at the Battle of the Little Big Horn ...was $250K.

If you restore a Antique gun you usually loose half the value as a rule of thumb.

Also if you make sure the bore isn't obstructed your rifle will shoot in it's present condition...obviously you have to look the rifle over to make sure something isn't wrong with it...Generally the 45/70 ammo that is loaded today is designed to shoot in the older Balck Powder guns...but again check this out with your ammo supplier....

Drago · Drago's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by pwd72s
This looks like one of the "place it in a case, hang it above the fireplace" rifles to me...

Paul,

For as long as I can remember that's exactly where my Grandfather had it...mounted on the wall above the door to his den/radio room...and that's what I'll do with it too.

Thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate it.

Jeff Higgins · 10-03-2004, 06:59 PM

Your rifle, if in good condition, is entirely shootable but really not very collectable. It will shoot well with the proper black powder ammunition. I see you are located in the "PNW region". So am I; Lynnwood as a matter of fact. If you would like to actualy shoot it, I can load up some of that proper ammunition. I am a very active black powder cartridge rifle shooter, competing in matches at every opportunity. Not to boast or anything, but more in an effort to state my qualifications, I have a grocery bag full of medals and a shelf full of trophies won with rifles of this era, shooting period correct black powder ammunition loaded at home. I have everything needed to make it go "bang". Just a couple of years ago a co-worker wound up in this very same situation and I wound up loading some ammunition for his old Trapdoor. We have had many enjoyable days at the range with that very rifle since. These things really are a hoot to shoot. As far as what it would take to get it running again, all the parts are pretty readily available if you know where to look. Most of the ones I've seen don't even need anything more than a good cleaning and oiling, and they are good to go. If it is all there, with no missing pieces, I would be willing to bet it can be made to shoot. Let me know if you want to try.

tabs · 10-04-2004, 02:35 AM

Yep....I like the old Black Powder cartridge guns as well....they are really fun guns to shoot..

Am currently looking for a Sharps 1877 Long Range Rifle...and a George Gibbs 1000 yard Target Rifle in 451 circa 1865 (Muzzle Loading).

BTW...There are some very unique Trapdoors that command heavy dinero....Officer Model Trapdoors...20K to 40K, Target Model Trapdoors 45/85...10K to 15K, Trophy Model Trapdoors...winners of military shooting matches were given presentation guns...15K to 25K. Trapdoors in 30 caliber, and the Custer serial number range Trapdoor carbines 5K up to 250K for one proven to be used at the Battle of the LBH in 1876.

Jeff Higgins · 10-04-2004, 05:34 AM

Yeah Tabs, they certainly are a lot of fun. "Smokeless powder is a passing fad" - Steve Garbe, circa early 1990's. The rare and collectable Trapdoors, along with the Peacemakers, are the most valuable and therefore commonly forged guns out there. Beware those "officers' models" especially; it's estimated that there are more in circulation now than ever left the armory. It's great that there are still a lot of "shooter grade" examples that survive for those of us that like to shoot as well as admire them. So are you looking for a '77 to shoot or collect? Carmen Axtel is still selling modern reproductions, and John Schofstall over at C. Sharps in Big Timber just came out with one. Both are beautiful rifles and capable of match grade accuracy. I'll vouch for John's work; my long range rifle is a '74 in .45-2.6, and my mid range rifle is a '75 in .45-2.1 (.45-70). Both have won their fair share for me.

tabs · 10-04-2004, 09:35 AM

I'm looking for orginal guns....however there is a man named Brown in Yakima that builds reproduction Gibbs rifles..His price is about equal to an orginal if you can find one...

I may never aqquire the 1877 Sharps simply because of the money involved...I could do a ground up on my 911 for the kind of money 1877's are pulling...

The Axtel guns went down hill after they got a divorce and I had problems with Schofstall....I bought a High Grade 1875 in 40/90 put it in a vault where the engraved receiver got some rust on it, shipped it back to be refurbished....18 months later still no gun back and when they did send it back it had a shorter barrel on it..so it went back again...

The absolute best 1877 reproduction is owned by a friend of mine...Steven Dodd Hughs gets the final credit for making the gun, and is pictured in his book..It is literally better than an orginal...it is perfection.

Besides the 1875 repo, I have an 1878 Long Range 45/100, Winchester deluxe Highwall (Special Range Rifle) in 38/55....

As with almost all of the exotic Springfield guns, they can be put togethers. Unless it can be verified by serial number at SRS, I wouldn't buy one.

BlueSkyJaunte · 10-04-2004, 10:02 AM

Tabs you have a PM.

Jeff Higgins · 10-04-2004, 10:42 AM

Funny, everybody I've ever met has had trouble with John Schofstall, myself included. He got my first rifle to me in less than half the quoted time, so I was impressed. He more than doubled the time on the second; it took almost five years to get it and several lame excuses from him. I'll vouch for the rifles, not the man building them. I understand C. Sharps is for sale, and that delivery is down to a couple of months now. I've heard of trouble at Axtel, but I never heard the quality had slipped. Oh well, it is kind of a tiny niche market, so that does leave us at the mercy of the few that venture into the business end of it. Good luck on your quest for the Gibbs and the '77. Both are beautiful rifles. Now that we have the long range cartridge game figured out once again, it would be fun to go after long range muzzle loading with something like a Gibbs, Rigby, Parker-Hale or whatever. I understand the relatively cheap Pedersoli Whitworths can shoot very well, but I'm not aware of anyone, other than the custom 'smiths, making any here. I've never heard of Brown; interesting that he is very close to where I live.

Drago · Drago's Garage

Jeff,

You have a PM.

tabs · 10-04-2004, 02:39 PM

A few years back I found a Parker Hale Whitworth Rifle...not the Italian copies now made..but an honest to goodness English Made Rifle circa 1980. These guns are now collectable unto themselves. It's a real B!tch loading that hexagon bullet.

Jeff Higgins · 10-04-2004, 05:33 PM

Marc, I checked my PM's and I don't see any messages in there. Are you sure you sent it to my PM's?

Tabs, I believe the new Pedersolis have standard round bores. I think they run .451, so they require a non-standard .45 mold. I think NEI had a mold, but I'm not sure what their status is since Walt's death and his daughter taking over. I think they are in Texas somewhere now. The hexagon bore might be interesting to play with, but I bet match grade accuracy would be tough to come by.

Drago · Drago's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Marc, I checked my PM's and I don't see any messages in there. Are you sure you sent it to my PM's?

OK, so I got PM and email mixed up. I just clicked on the mail icon near your name and sent an email to whatever address your using for Pelican.

jm951 · 10-05-2004, 11:20 AM

Even original Trapdoor Springfields can be fired with modern factory ammo. The modern stuff is loaded to the original pressures of black powder. The main difference will be in the depth of the rifling. The old rifles were made for soft lead bullets and the moderns ones are jacketed. This can lead to inaccuracy in the original rifles. With inspection by a competent gunsmith as for safety and collectibility, your rifle is probably safe to fire with factory ammo. Don't try to shoot the stuff I've loaded in it as it was tweaked for Ruger No 1. rifles. Very high pressure and will wreck a Trapdoor.

tabs · 10-05-2004, 11:38 AM

Hey JM didn't I say that about 45/70 ammo in this thread a few posts ago...Hmmm maybe I'm slippin or somethin...

Gibbs Rifles now make the Whitworth rifle using from what I understand are English Parker Hale barrels and assembling them in Italy....They still use the Hexagon bores....the moulds are available from Lyman the last I checked. These rifles are not the same quality as the orginal ones from Parker Hale...made in the late 1970's and early 1980's...3 digit serial numbers seem to be more desirable...maybe they had closer tolerances?

The Whitworth was developed by a British Officer by the name of Joesph Whitworth in 1855. It was primarily used as a 1000 Yd Target Rifle with GREAT success. During the 2nd American Revolution in the 1860's the South used the Whitworth as a Sniper Rifle to Great success. Whitworths used as such command large preimums... a good Whithworth used in the CW can go for 9K to 15K... A well known Antique Gun Dealer has a English Target model for 14K and a set of Sights for $6500.