Terrorists might just be winning the real war -

[Purrybonker]

Various economic gurus have growth in GDP pegged at somewhere between 3.1 and 3.5% for 2005 - falling away from a forecast 4+ % for 2004. The US dollar is dropping in leaps and bounds vs the currencies of US trading partners, despite fed rates higher than those same trading partners.

In contrast - next door to the US the Canadian dollar continues to strengthen and is now predicted to exceed the value of the US greenback within the next few years. GDP growth forecasts for Canada are well into the high 4% range for 2005.

Why the difference? It's not US monetary policy - Greenspan is dancing as fast as he can. The primary bad guy here is those bags of money flowing from the hands of the creditors of the US government into Iraqnam. Treasury bonds and other debt instruments being at least partly bought up with mid-eastern oil dollars.

The terrorists are winning the war while the US continues to lob ordnance around Iraq. OBL might just be chuckling while America sells it's economic future down the river. Maybe that's been the plan all along - plant the seeds and sit back and watch the US implode with fear-driven debt while the rest of the world (read China) churns ever forward.

[joeclarke]

Have to admit that I've thought the same thing myself... I expect that a similar train of thought is going through the minds of many "ex" or "quasi" or even "used-to-be-dyed-in-the-wool" republicans.

Crap - we are digging ourselves into a huge hole trying to swat mosquitos with howitzers half way around the world. Maybe we're just playing right into their hands.

Think about that latest OBL tape. Why would he release that tape right before the election - seemingly to help the Bush fear-factor based cause? Wouldn't the terrorists rather see someone supposedly "soft on terror" in the Whitehouse rather than a loose cannon?

I'm wondering if the bad guys just want to prod America just enough to keep us focused on them while we chew our economy into garbage. Terrorists know that they can't win the quick big-bang wars - they can only win the wars of attrition.

[red-beard]

So what do you suggest we do instead?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by joeclarke
...Think about that latest OBL tape. Why would he release that tape right before the election - seemingly to help the Bush fear-factor based cause? Wouldn't the terrorists rather see someone supposedly "soft on terror" in the Whitehouse rather than a loose cannon?....

Not at all.

Kerry would bring a 'fresh start' to talks with allies and bring them in to Iraq. Bush2 only brings in US corporations. Bush is a great lightning rod for Islamic fundamentalist hatred because buried (not too deep) in Bush's speeches are the notion that democracy is the 'gift of a Christian God.' That means bin Laden & co. can call this occupation part of the "new Crusades" and invoke Allah in their struggle.

OBL put plenty of fodder in his speech to swing the vote to Bush while reinforcing the entrenched Kerry forces. IOW, he is helping reinforce the intransigence of both sides.

[red-beard]

Jimmy Carter, Part Duex

[red-beard]

Originally posted by techweenie
Bush is a great lightning rod for Islamic fundamentalist hatred because buried (not too deep) in Bush's speeches are the notion that democracy is the 'gift of a Christian God.' That means bin Laden & co. can call this occupation part of the "new Crusades" and invoke Allah in their struggle.

What are you talking about? The Jihad was already established before Bush was in office. The embassy bombings in Kenya, etc. The USS Cole. All of the planning for Sept 11th. These all occured under Clinton. I am not blaming Clinton. Just pointing out that the issues have and will be around for years to come.

You cut these people off when you cut off the money. No bucks, no bombs. What ever you think about the situation in Iraq, it has cut off the supply of money to the terrorist organizations in a major way. Many of the companies in the "Oil for Food 'program'", were diverting money to Al Queda.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by techweenie
Not at all.

Kerry would bring a 'fresh start' to talks with allies and bring them in to Iraq.

Bwaaahaaahahahaha

Name One. Just one will do.

[joeclarke]

Originally posted by red-beard
So what do you suggest we do instead?

Well, no presidential candidate can say it - but the answer is painfully obvious. The historic examples make it painfully obvious. The imperialistic empires of every superpower in history
(well, the vast majority anyway) have been brought to their knees by economics - not by military force. Americans should understand that more than anyone, save the Brits.

Just like GWB keeps saying - "we have to be right 100% of the time - they only have to be right once". He loves to use that to describe the effort of trying to prevent terrorist aggression. If that's sooo true (and it probably is) then - how can we hope to defeat terrorists in foreign lands if we can't even count on defeating them on our home turf?

Forget Iraq, Afganistan or any other ****istan. Let the UN and the international community fight the world battles. Let's keep our powder dry to use within American borders. That's the best hope to keep Americans safe and economically healthy.

[lendaddy]

It's also incredibly short sighted. Agree/disagree with this particular war, fine. But to take such an isolationist view of world issues in naive at best. Nip it in the bud, only problem is it's already flowered since we ignored it for so long. We've been over this, so I guess we'll do the agree to disagree thing.

[red-beard]

So, in a nutshell, we should close our borders, the the world go "F" itself and only fight wars when they occur inside our boarders?

[mikester]

Originally posted by joeclarke
Well, no presidential candidate can say it - but the answer is painfully obvious. The historic examples make it painfully obvious. The imperialistic empires of every superpower in history
(well, the vast majority anyway) have been brought to their knees by economics - not by military force. Americans should understand that more than anyone, save the Brits.

Hard to argue...

Fact is our economy is our number one interest and it doesn't seem to me that Bush is intelligent enough in his policy to safeguard it.

Our economy is not what we want it to be. Oil and energy is are a huge part of it. If bush had said "We're going to Iraq; We need their oil and that's that." I might have been behind him at least a bit. The facts are that our energy supply is severly dwindled here in the states (especially after the recent hurricanes in the gulf) and our economy will suffer for it. What will either candidate do to fix this?

Doesn't seem to be a topic of conversation as far as I can tell...


Personally I'd rather a diplomat than a cowboy in a lot of what has happened over the last 4 years. We aren't better off and we're more divided which is what the terrorists want I'm sure.

[Purrybonker]

Originally posted by red-beard
So, in a nutshell, we should close our borders, the the world go "F" itself and only fight wars when they occur inside our boarders?

grey scale, grey scale - think grey scale. Would be nice if conservatives could think outside of the black/white boxes. No one is suggesting isolationism. Find some middle ground - nothing is stagnant - the world is always in transition. America can't run around "fixing" everything (particularily very, very expensive fixes like wars) that they don't like in the world and still be an economic beacon - the world is a competitive place.

We all have to lever what ever we can to compete these days -even McDonalds and General Motors have figured that out - why can't the US government? If you can cost share the war on terror with your economic "counterparties" (read competitors) do so - if you can't - then pack it in or die an economic death...

If the US is the only nation (like they are today) spending big bucks on terrorism - the US will lose the economic war to the non-combatants. No doubt. It's already happening.

[Superman]

There is no question. Look at it this way: If OBL and his planners are not very bright, then perhaps they're taking their licks. But if OBL and his planners are sharp cookies, then they're likely safe somewhere, recruiting has never been easier and the US is shooting its wad against a phantom foe. It's like the old rope-a-dope technique only better. Intead of the guy punching your arms, he's punching someone else altogether. And for those of you who do not recall the Thrilla in Manila, when the bout ends, the guy that threw the most punches for the most rounds......loses.

Does anyone understand the history of academics in the Mulsim world? How many of you Dubya-lovers are a little short on their history lessons, and think Muslims are a bunch of third-world ignoramuses?

[tabs]

ALI ....did the Rope A Dope against Foreman in Zaire in "The Rumble in the Jungle" not against Frazer in the "Thrilla from Manilla"....The Thrilla was a war of atrition and Frazer ran out gas around round 12...and couldn't stand up to start the round...That was the last great fight either man had...

[Mule]

Good point. If it was up to Pikie, Widebutty & Tech, we'd have surrendered already!

[tabs]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
The US dollar is dropping in leaps and bounds vs the currencies of US trading partners, despite fed rates higher than those same trading partners.

Treasury bonds and other debt instruments being at least partly bought up with mid-eastern oil dollars.

plant the seeds and sit back and watch the US implode with fear-driven debt while the rest of the world (read China) churns ever forward.

And I thought I was a pessimist....

Well I guess FEAR is a good thing...at least whats going on has got your attention...

Mid East oil dollars have been invested in the USA and Europe for about 40 years now...The Saudi own a large chunk of Krups in Germany...in the late 90's one of the Saudi Princes bought a bunch of Apple when it was on the ropes

The Brits are the biggest foreign investors in America they have been at it for 200 years....

If the USA implodes what is going to happen to the rest of the world...think of it CA alone is #5 ieconomy in the world....thus if we go everybody goes...

To blame Bush for these problems btw is naive...our economic problems transcend the term of office of any one president...as in a house one brick is put on top of another and any one brick is not the whole house. ...

[techweenie]

Originally posted by red-beard
What are you talking about? The Jihad was already established before Bush was in office. The embassy bombings in Kenya, etc. The USS Cole. All of the planning for Sept 11th. These all occured under Clinton. I am not blaming Clinton. Just pointing out that the issues have and will be around for years to come.

Lots of presidents can share the blame, Clinton among 'em. From 1988 to 2001, estimates say al Quaeda grew to 60,000 members. 18 months after the invasion of Iraq, there are supposedly 18,000 new al Quaeda members. that's what I'm talking about.

We agree that Jihad has many heads, and al Quaeda is just one of them. We also agree that this problem will be around for years (if not generations) to come.

[Beethoven]

Man Purrybonker, you're so right it's frightening. It seems to me that Bush and his people are like boys in a schoolyard fight who can't stop flailing about after they have been hit by a particularly mean outsider. They can't stop and sit down and think this one out. So we're going down with them.
One of the most revealing things in the debates was Bush's assertion that 'we've killed 75% of Quaida'. It's stupid (did they know how many there were to begin with?) but it's dangerous to boot, because it suggests if we kill 100% of them we're home free. But while killing them, we're recruiting for them. It's hopeless.
The other thing is that as a nation America has to get out of this mind set of being helplessly vulnerable against the terrorists. Fear destroys judgment. We've been vulnerable before 9/11, and there never will be full safety within our borders. Deal with it. Confront it. Snap out of the hysteria. Stop capitalizing on fear. The likelihood of being a victim of terrorists is still infinitely smaller than being hit by a bus. You still cross the street. THere's no way to get the upper hand on OBL if we're whimpering with fear and drawing our shutters.

[tabs]

we can go back to Regan for the balme game...remember the 200 Marines that were blown up in Lebanon back in 1982...What did Regan do after they were kiled he pulled the troops out...Thus setting the pattern of US involvement..of running away when the going gets tough...

[Superman]

Many times I have had the same thought as Beethoven. Of course, there are those who barely even understand what we're talking about, and who think it's all about protecting our war effort against liberals who would immediately withdraw all troops and issue an international apology. (rolling eyes smilie goes here)

I am an American. I love our freedoms, I love the flag, I love apple pie (I can take Chevrolets or leave them...frankly I think Ford has always made a better truck) and I am proud of our courage. Which is why I am squirming these days with frustration at the current administration's attempts (apparently successful judging by the number of posters here who are talking as though we are in a life-and-death struggle where the violent takeover of our country is imminent) to make Americans scared. Scared stiff. Frozen with fear. That's perfect. Dubya is going to be elected to the position of President of the United States of America on the strength of tens of millions of frightened, quaking "Americans." Bull****. Like Beethoven says, getting hit by a bus is dangerous but we cross the street each day. Terrorism will always be with us, or at least it CERTAINLY will be with us until after we quit giving them good reasons to hate us. So, we're the nation that acts out of cowardice? In my humble view, Kerry's vision shows much more courage.

It's like when your car gets hit by a snowball. Dubya would want to chase the delinquents wearing bulletproof vest, carrying a large caliber weapon. I'd guess that Kerry would just shoo them away like the children they are. Now, terrorists are not children and 9/11 was not a snowball. But there's a John Wayne way to do stuff and then there's the PeeWee Herman way. Dubya is decidedly no John Wayne.

I wish Americans would act like Americans. But then, fear has always been the favorite tool of the ruling class. so, if you want to be controlled, be afraid. Be very afraid.