Thats why so many people want to come to America for the oportunities that freedom brings and to escape from the fear of a knock on the door at night...

I think that, this time, you started disagreeing with me before you read my whole post.

Certainly, "doing nothing" . . ."staying & hoping for the best" is one choice. It's the choice of many a deer caught by headlights.

But as tabs sez; 70% of Faluja did just that... LEFT...

Are these people all out dying in the desert?

They assessed the situation, made a choice. A smart choice IMO.

I couldn't (and still don't) understand why we gave so much warning. The only up-side that I can see, is that Zarkawi is on the run (and having to travel light), a few Saddam loyalist get to pursue virgins, and the beheading facilities have been found (stopped).

I suppose the bigger plus is that those who choose to AVOID conflict have left the city. . ...and will return once the dust settles.

The freedom comes from cheap oil, and the cheap oil has to be fought for nowdays. It is as simple as that, but I can detail all the steps if necessary. Nobody is trying to invade the USA, or to impose an islamic regime. For you to beleive this, Tabs, is a little disappointing from a thinker of your caliber ;)

Aurel

Osama Bin Laden had two main reasons to attack the USA: their support for Israel, and their presence in Saudi Arabia. From that, a whole fear wongering propaganda has been built up, and we now have people who truly beleive islamists want to take over the USA, along with Saddam Hussein being responsible for 9/11. This is absolutely not the case. If these people were left alone, they would leave us alone too. But the great irony is that their sand is sitting on our oil, right ?

Aurel

Then what was the WTC then....if not an invasion of sorts...in todays world an invasion can come over the internet...No freedom doesn't come from cheap oil, that just shows how cynical the Left has become...Freedom comes from standing up and not allowing an aggresor like Osama to operate....to infringe on your way of life...and Osama does hate freedom...because with freedom everybody doesn't have to march in the lock step of belief in a restrictive religion that defines everybodys role in it. With freedom you have choichs and sometimes that appears to be chaotic....especially to the narrow minded...

Freedom comes from the economy,Tabs, you know that. You are free as long as you can pay the bills. And you can pay the bills as long as you are growing your economy. And to grow the economy, you need to sell cars, move goods, drive to work, have air condtioning...all this uses oil. We are free to drive porsches because the oil we put in them is pretty darn cheap. And China is going to need lots of oil, soooo...the boss will be the one who controls the flow of oil. And, if radical islamist regimes develop in the middle east, they will be the ones who control the oil, and they won`t be resonable people to deal with. This is what is at stake. Not them invading us. Sounds pretty simple to me.

Aurel

Its called retaliation.

If you walk up to a guy and punch him in the face do not expect him to turn the other cheek or be nice about it.

Your right....and "paying the bills" means that from time to time you have to stand up and fight for yourself...to keep somone from infringing upon your rights...or should I say freedom... freedom to run a Global economy if you like...

Do you honestly think that Osama wouldn't try to dictate his moralityand religious beliefs on the world if he had a stranglehold on the supply of oil? He could bend the will of the world with a turn of the spigot...

Hmmm...some deep thinking on a Sat. morning. I tend to agree with Tabs in a transcedental sense - 9/11 was an invasion - ideologically. Through a set of actions (WTC, The Pentagon, the plane crashed in PA. before it could get to the White House), we were rocked horribly in our belief that we are immune from terrorism.

As to Aurel, physically, no, Islamics aren't going to invade the U.S. But as Tabs says, they have invaded, and currently reside in our conscience. Whether one disagrees and hates them, or feels less spite for OBL, Zarkawi and anyone else, if their objective was to send a long-term message, they've succeeded in spades.

Island, also is correct: at least half of Fallujah got out of town, along with the insurgents. They heeded the warning given by the U.S. military and news reports.

Whether or not it was too much warning depends on what one wants out of Fallujah. Complete devestation, including innocents merits less warning. Less collateral damage necessitates more warning. It's just a matter of how much destruction you want to see.

And, if the US loses the `war on terror` which I will rename the `war for oil`, for the sake of my argument, here is what will happen: unfriendly radical islamic regimes who hate the USA because of its support for Israel will develop in Iraq, Afghanistan, and will decide to sell their oil primarily to China and Europe. This will cause oil prices to rise in the US, and the dollar to collapse. Rising oil prises will cause inflation, which will grip the economy. And the debt level is such that a little slowing down of the economic growth will have catastrophic consequences. In other words, radical islamist regimes could destroy the US economy without one single terrorist blowing himself up on US soil.

Aurel

Retaliation....350 you sound just like Osama...we only did it because you did it first....grow up...

Tabs, an excellent point......

...so why has our Leadership chosen to do just the opposite, and instead use him to keep the hate alive in his followers, and fear in the west?
Personally I think that if we had sent 130,000 troops to Afghanistan we might have made alot more progress on that front. It might not have even taken 2 years, $x00 Billion, and 1000+ dead soldiers. Just my opinion, but we seem to be more intent on fanning the flames of our own agenda these days.

I hate to burst you bubble but....the USA doesn't get the majority of it's oil from the ME....China, Japan, Europe ...do get it's oil from the ME...so why in the world does the USA want to keep the economies of China, Japan and Europe running....Simple the better the Global Economy is running..growing, prospering the better the USA does...the tide raises ALL boats..or whats good for GM is good for America...

Staylo, excellent point. IF the objective was to capture OBL, it might have been productive to focuse more on Afghanistan. But you need to put the Iraq oil in the equation, and it all becomes clear what the true objectives were.

Aurel

Aurel,
Crystal clear.

Agreed, but oil is like water in the body: even if the USA gets only 15 0r 20% of its oil from the ME, the lack of these 15 or 20% can be fatal. It does not take much to affect oil prices. Look at the impact of the Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico had on the oil prices. How much oil does the USA get from the gulf of Mexico ?

Aurel

Staylo...nobody ever said our leadership was smart....they make mistakes..but remember who doesn't...

Two nations have tried to subdue Afgan with large armies..the Brits in the 19th century..theylost 2 armies to the man and the Russians and you know what happened to them...our approach to Afgan was PERFECT...perhaps they should have allocated a few mmore resources to keep more pressure on the Taliban etc

Our leadership is bound by thinking in Western terms and using Western solutions to problems...this is how our system works (Military, State Dept etc) ... we havn't been able to think around a corner....and it is our very way of doing business eg solving problems that fans the flames in the Middle East.

Oh yeah Osama could care less about the Palesteinians...he came to include their cause much later much like and afterthought he could use to bolster his cause and fan the flames of hatred for the West.

Thats why they want to open Alaska up so that we are not as dependent on ME oil...

Further the USA still has tons of oil reserves left....but it still isn't profitable to tap them...our easy oil is gone...whats left is tougher to get...

Look, here is what should have been done: Focus on Afghanistan, leave Iraq alone, and there would be no Fallujah to talk about. Let the UN inspect and contain Saddam, it worked just fine.
Give the Palestinians a State, now that Arafat is dead, it should be a piece of cake.
And finally, the $200Bn that were spent in Iraq should have gone to DOE instead of DOD. This was the smart thing to do. But I know, hinsight is always 20/20 ;)

Aurel

I think all this has or is already happening.

FWIW: I believe we should open Alaska to drilling. If we insist on driving 150 yr-old combustible technology for cheap, well, what other choice do we have...