What would you do...`

[mikester]

Okay - I'm turning to the sages so to speak...

Here's the deal - I wanted to help my sister. My sister is in grad school, this is her last semester - last February we bought a house and it happens to be in the same general area as her school. Up until that point she was on her own mostly - though when she first started she slept on my couch in my apartment before the wife and I got together. So, we buy this nice good sized house for just the two of us (at the time) and we offer sis a room for the summer and possibly into December if it works out. Well...I made it clear to the wife that we were not to ever Depend on that money from sis's Rent. We only charged her a little bit compared to what her expenses would be on her own in Socal (Utilities, etc). When she moved in she had a job and was pulling in enough money to pay her bills so I though. Well, I'm not quite sure why but she quit that job and really didn't have anything lined up. At the time things were going well though and she was also teaching at the school. I figured she was responsible enough to know what was what. That month she couldn't pay her rent. She called mom for assistance and I come to find out from mom that she hasn't been paying any of her bills for about 9 months (she's been with me for working on 3 at this point). So...she never says anything to me about not paying the rent the first month. I let it go...mistake I know but I wanted to help her. Second month comes up and still she hasn't even said anything to me about the first month. So I bring it up - and she says she's waiting on her student loan and then she'll have the money to get back square. She gets the loan money and pays the back rent. She pays the next month no sweat. November comes and she can't pay, December comes and she can't pay and she still isn't saying anything to me about it until after the fact. I told her in november that she had to talk to me BEFORE the rent was due to keep me from getting pissed about it.

December came and she didn't speak to me - her excuse was that she didn't know what day it was. I gave her a lecture about her responsibilities and the damage she was doing to our relationship.

Now it is January - the wife and I had our First in late december. Sis has been mooching off of us since November because she hasn't had any money. She got paid Jan 1 by the school and the first thing I see is that she's brought home sodas and cigs. Now the rent is due today and she hasn't said anything to me about not paying it (or paying it). She's just started a new job about a week ago so I'm sure she hasn't been paid by them yet.

the deal for me was that I Wanted to help her but I didn't not intend to give her a free ride. I very irritated that she's been sucking down our food, not contributing in any significant way to the household AND she leaves me hanging in the dark on the whole rent issue in general.

I don't feel like giving her a free ride is helping her.

In her defense - she gets straight A's, and when she's not at school or at work she's at home working on some project or another for school. She's very dedicated to school but the rest of her life is in the crapper and it doesn't seem that she cares to do anything about it.

At this point I'm ready to say - be out by this time next month. I can't support her - plus she's taking up a room that I now would really like to have.

Your thoughts?

[DonDavis]

Mike, Mike, Mike.... this is a tough one. She needs a wake up call. SOON!

If you are providing her a home, then you have every right to ask about her finances. Don't kick her out just yet but she needs to know that what she's doing is wrong. Plus, it's adding strain to your marriage, right? Strain that would otherwise NOT exist.

Now, you have some responsibility in this as well. Were the guidelines clearly defined prior to her move-in date? Length of residence, rent, household assistance, etc...

I would talk to the wife, agree on a FAIR plan, then have a discussion with sis. Allow her to tweak the plan so she has ownership as well. If she can't pay rent, that house should be cleaned by her every week. How much time would that save you guys? Vacuum, dust, dishes, laundry. Physical help is worth something.

Just a few ideas.

Don't wait any longer. Address this soon and good luck.

[Milu]

My first reaction was to say: Just give her her marching orders. But she is your sister and it seems she has some issues beyond not paying her dues, I think you have a responsability to get to the bottom of that.

Start by gently and politely telling her you are pissed about the situation and that it ends now.

Establish that with her new job she can pay all her commitments and try and find what the root problem is - it could be anything from being a bad money manager to being just personally disorganised to having a lot of debts you know nothing about.

From that you have to decide how to go forward together. It's likely she needs no more than a lot of initial help in organising her finances and a wakeup call about her responsabilities to the household. It might be better if she finds her own place.

[A Quiet Boom]

I have mixed emotions on this issue but I agree with Don, she should be at least cleaning the house etc. My wife and I allowed a mutual friend to move in a few years back while she was going through a divorce, the deal was no rent but she did the housework, this worked out great for all of us and she was able to pull herself together financially. My personal position on family in never to charge them for anything but I do expect them to cover my costs if at all possible. However in your case you had an agreement with your sister to pay rent. It seems to me that the two of you need to have a heart to heart and figure out what her problems are. If your sister is in fact spending all of her time working or studying and still can't pay the rent there is something wrong financially. I'd sit her down and go through her income and expenses with her, if the money is there then she should pay, if not then she should be helping around the house. Perhaps she just needs a little guidence from her older brother. There is a fine line between helping someone and allowing them to freeload.

[red-beard]

You are acting as a defacto parent and she sees you no different than mom and dad: i.e. a free ride. She's the youngest in the family, right?

Give her reality. Seriously - Print up a Bill and leave it in her room. If she doesn't like it, she moves out and then _has_ to make it work. This doesn't mean to be a jerk about it it, but work out a weekly payment plan, or daily. When she pays, submit a new bill with the balance.

You are getting a preview of parenting. Be thankful. Set the expectations and the rules and boundaries, then, without emotion, enforce them. Again, don't be a jerk about it, but be forceful, resolute and consistent. Children need this. She may look like an adult (snappy comment about your sister deleted), but she is a child, since she is not acting as an adult.

If you're not careful, she'll be drinking and getting Tattoos...oh crap! Too late!

[Victor]

Hi Mike,

Never lend money to family unless your intentions are to turn it into a gift on the agreed due date. I mean this with utmost sincerety as I have enough experience about this particular topic to write half of a (probaly very bad) book.

[MFAFF]

Very tough question.

On the one hand how many sisters do you have and is it worth potentially damaging the family relationship, she will be your child's aunt forever over money..or do you stick with the money side of things.

Boom's response has some good tips...

And like Victor, the other half of the book could be written hear....with a good ending as it all worked out exellently in the end of all concerned. But it took years to work it all out.

[mikester]

While the money is a factor - simply because we can't afford to support her - all we really want out of her is her fair share of food and utilities (which is what her "rent" is mostly).

The big issue here is that I feel like I am enabling her to be irresponsible and I don't see that as helping her through life. If she was responsible and paid her bills on time and what not then giving her a free ride might not be such an issue because I know it would not be hurting her. The thing is - she's not contributing - we tried the housework thing and she more or less blew it off. We had worked out a deal where she kept the house clean and I lowered her "rent" appropriately. After a while though she just stopped doing it and when I confronted her about it she said that I hadn't paid her so she stopped. I asked her about the deal we had regarding the rent and she said she didn't remember having that talk.

The family went through this with my little Brother for a while; though he was unemployed and not going to school. It was a rough time - mom kicked him out so he moved in the dad and it took him a while to get his act together. He has though, he's on his own and he's got himself an AA degree and is starting a Bachelor's very soon. Hmmmf. Maybe I should ask him what HE thinks? But it was rough going with him for a while - he wanted nothing to do with responsibility for himself much less anything else. My sister is the youngest....

[mikester]

I appreciate all the thought put into the responses and will show this to the wife later today. This has us pretty stressed because of course we love her but we don't know if we're doing the right thing.

Plus there's the whole no sleep because of having an infant around thing.

[cstreit]

Mike,

She clearly has money management issues... I think you established that. She also ASSUMES that you'll let the rent slide, otherwise she would have said something to you, or made arrangements to take care of that. You're not doing her any favors by letting it slide any more.

Now if shere were a C or D student, I'd say time for a SERIOUS wakeup call because she's not using her time wisely either, however with A's, she can probably get cut a little more slack.

I would sit down with her and review her income from the new job and figure out her basic expenses and beer money. Then allocate some for 'rent'.

You say you have a new baby? Then you probably have no free time. So why not trade some labor? It's a perfect situation really. I have a 2 month old now too, and know how things like dishes, cleaning, etc.. can easily slip. So just like a parent (which you are already doing essentially) you assign her chores. I bet you'd rather have those things taken care of then the money right? I know I would....

She's a member of the household and has to contribute one way or the other. If it's not all money, it should be housework in exchange. it's only fair.

[legion]

Originally posted by DonDavis
Plus, it's adding strain to your marriage, right? Strain that would otherwise NOT exist.

For this exact reason my wife and I decided not to let my father come live with us. We knew that once here, he would never leave, never get a job, and never contribute in any way. We didn't think it would make for a pleasant way to spend the first years of our marriage.

Originally posted by Victor
Never lend money to family...

I can't agree more. My father has borrowed money from most of my extended family (even from me!)...twice in some cases. We're talking thousands of dollars from each person. Let's just say that the money never went to the things it was supposed to, and no one has ever seen a dime back from him. There are whole branches of my family I have never met because of some things my father did before I was born.

[Tishabet]

Tell her that any outstanding debt to you is a loan, and set up a repayment schedule and legal documentation using a private formalization service such as circlelending.com or the like. Give her a realistic window to repay, and charge interest. If she misses payments to you, report her to the credit services (circlelending will do it for you). I assume since she's in grad school that her peers have to pay rent and make their own way....Welcome to the real world, Sis!

[Overpaid Slacker]

I agree with most of what's been said here ... the be "firm" and "resolute" parts, most especially.

I'd add to that recipe "forthright". It's obvious this is beyond the point where things "will become" a problem -- they are a problem. And it appears that the basic options are -- you and your wife can take action now or be forever upset with your sister (and maybe w/ yourselves for not having taken any actin).

You risk that the sister will be upset with you, but you owe her nothing and have been more than tolerant and generous to date. When and if she ever grows up, however, she'll understand that the world (and everyone in it) does not owe her anything and acknowledge your generosity up to the point where she'd exhausted it.

I think Red-Beard's "leave her a bill" idea is a bit extreme, but if that's how close you are to your wits' end, perhaps you should. In any event, you -- and your wife -- need to have a verbal intervention and lay things out. Do not allow sis to cause you anxiety in your own home; to dread "rent time" or to let things slide to your detriment. There are actual, marginal out-of-pocket costs to her living with you that she is inflicting on you, and evidently doesn't care about so treating you and your family.

Whatever you decide, be forthright, do not allow her to evade/elude with gossamer promises, and, when you're done, look her square in the eye and say "you're not going to 'forget' this conversation and the arrangements we've agreed to, right?"

JP

[red-beard]

Extreme? Me? Noooo.

However, I think it's less extreme than tossing her out on her butt. Forthright is right on the money. It isn't becoming a problem, it already is, or you wouldn't be asking this crazy crowd for advice.

If she is "forgetful", then things must be in writing. Yep. You are going to be the mean brother. But, get used to it. You have 20+ years of this staring you in the face.

I do think you should have a talk with your brother. But you are then one who should talk with her.

I can't remember what she is studying...but I'm guessing it's not technical.

[concentric]

Originally posted by MFAFF
Very tough question.

On the one hand how many sisters do you have and is it worth potentially damaging the family relationship, she will be your child's aunt forever over money..or do you stick with the money side of things.

I have one simple rule in dealing with family: Unless you are my wife, you don't get to **** me.

That means that I air all my feelings to my family ALL THE TIME. I never hold back, unless the issue is trivial and not worth dealing with. This approach has caused me a lot of grief, but it's also built amazing relationships with my family with open communication, understanding, and respect.

I think you really need to call your sister out and ask her why she thinks you're not important and why she's disrespecting you and your family. I would never allow my sister to get away with that without giving her the mental and emotional equivalent of a noogie.

EDIT: Then if she didn't get her **** together, I'd kick her out, with very clear communication about the reasons for doing so and how they are born out of love, for her and your family.

[mattdavis11]

Very tough decision indeed. I'm in a similar boat as well, it's my older brother, though. 3 months? Nope, going on 3 years. I pay rent, he doesn't, I have a full time job, he works when he wants. He makes damned good money when he does, but it gets pissed away and I end up with a stack of "our" bills. IIRC, he said he had $500 to his name.

I'm to blame as well, I don't tally up all the expenses, nor do I tell him. I just pay them. What comes around goes around.

To tell you the truth, it only bothers me sometimes, and then I get over it. All I have to do is remind myself that this is my brother, and there isn't any amount of money that could ever come between us, period. Really, after all, the core charge for his alternator did get credited back to my account.

This is a bit harder for me swallow. The family (he has 3 older brothers, mother, father, I'm the youngest) beats on me to pass the message that he needs to be gainfully employed again, and resume a normal, responsible life. I get sick of that. I don't want to be the bad guy.

He'll get back on his feet again, I'm sure. Only then, I may drop the bomb on the financial damage. Or, I'll wrap it up, and put it under the Christmas tree, or in a birthday card with no UOI.

When it comes to my family, I can never do as much for them, as they do for me.
I hope you get it all sorted out.

[Rot 911]

Originally posted by mattdavis11
To tell you the truth, it only bothers me sometimes, and then I get over it. All I have to do is remind myself that this is my brother, and there isn't any amount of money that could ever come between us, period.

Matt, if your brother actually felt the same way about you, he would get a job and pay back the money he owes you. He's a mooch, but if it doesn't bother then that is fine.

[mattdavis11]

guess I should have added that in my late teens/tweens, he covered me plenty of times. It wasn't for as long though. What really sucks now (just got off the phone with him) is that he is working and won't be able to pull the d*mn chicken out of the freezer. Oh well, can't have it both ways I guess.

[gaijindabe]

Strait A's? Last semester of grad school? I think your done until graduation. Her focus is elsewhere. But good time to start talking with her about what she is going to do after May..

[mikester]

Well...the Wife just wants her to contribute more around the house. She's handling it better than I am mainly because I feel like she's showing me a lot of disrespect. I really feel like I've earned a little more than that. I know I was always grateful when family and friends helped me out (especially when I was her age and younger). I also learned a lot of lessons when they told me it was time I handled this or that problem on my own.