Anyone have a different view of alcoholism?

[Superman]

Having been an alcoholism counselor, I can see that you understand your own question, and the consequences of making a poor decision. Conventional wisdom is clear. But....your physician appears to be as versed in this as anyone and his opinion is that you probably have not contracted the disease of "alcoholism."

You know, or should know very well that you'd be playing russian roulette. You roll the dice, you take your chances. And you may also know that the stakes can be very high. Real honest to goodness alcoholism destroys people and their families. You know that. On the other hand, you quit once before. And some are concluding that your previous drinking, and quitting, had something other than alcoholism as a cause.

This is a tough one, Christian. But then, you knew that. You're wondering whether you should reach for the gun.

[badcar]

My story is not too different. I was in the service industry before switching to retail. I have been sober for over 10 years, stopped drinking at age 25. All I can say is if there is a question of "control"...you can't.

I don't preach. Choice is yours, but add it up. What are you really missing to risk so much?

[A Quiet Boom]

Wow, thanks everyone. I really didn't expect so many replies to this question. I applaud those who have overcome addiction, Mark, speeder and a few others.

Some more background. When I first noticed I was drinking too much was when my GF at the time mentioned it. All I knew is that I would get really nervous in certain situations and a drink would calm my nerves. I quit drinking a few times but then a week or so later the nerves would come back and I'd reach for the bottle. I had never heard of PD or any such thing and I didn't feel like I drank anymore than my college buddies, in fact I knew many of them drank a lot more. Anyway as the nerves got worse I started talking to older co-workers whom I trusted and one of them mentioned anxiety disorder so I overcame my fears enough to go see a doctor, he medicated me with Xanax and sent me home even though I told him I was drinking too often IMO. Well Xanax didn't do me much good and things got worse so I sought out the very best doctor I could find. This doctor explained that drinking will in fact calm the nerves but it can make you more nervous the next day. His advice was to quit entirely and he started me on Klonopin at a high dose. The Klonopin really helped the anxiety and I did quit drinking, I requested a hospital stay because I was so nervous about giving it up. I came out of that hospital a changed man, I had my life back to some extent and for the last 11 years I have worked hard to control my PD better. I've done so well that I take very little medication anymore, if a situation produces fear I confront it with meditation, breathing exercises and desensitation. It's been well over a year since I had a real panic attack, just mild anxeity from time to time. Last year was tough, my wife lost her job (and our insurance), fell into a deep depression and was diagnosed with BPD (borderline personality disorder), I had just bought a new truck and we'd lost a third of our income. I took on all of the responsibiltiy for the house as well as increased responsibiltiy at work. I fell 15 feet from a ladder and nearly paralyzed myself. If there was ever enough stress to drive me back to drinking it was last year. This year and the last few monthes of last year were much better, I got a good sized raise, medical insurance through my company, and a large bonus. The wife is finally able to look for work again and she's really pulled herself together. In short we've made it through the crisis much stronger than we ever were. At work you can drink anything you want for free as long as it's coffee or water, not liking the water I drank the coffee unitl I decided I wanted to workout and try once last time to put some muscle on my small frame, I bought my own coffee pot and decaf and quit caffeine entirely in one day, even chocolate. A good diet, vitamins, and lifting weights helped me put on nearly 30 lbs since then. I find the exercise is a great stress relief and credit it with helping get through last year's crisis. The point to all of this is that I have been able to do just about anything I put my mind to and I've learned very good crisis management skills, I also still have the same doctor who knows me very well, I don't think he'd give me the go ahead if he really thought I'd have a problem again. I'm here asking a second opinion mainly because I really can't make up my mind on this one. I mean sure I'd appreciate a fine wine but I also appreciate fine food and decaf cappucinos so I'm not really missing much. I think this is all just another personal test. I'm in the habit of testing my abilities and frankly when people tell me I can't do something I get obsessive about proving them wrong. My critics are my best mentors so to speak. In this case I guess I want to know if I'm really an alcoholic. I've got a lot to consider it seems and I'm glad I have you guys to give me some input.

[COLDBASS]

Originally posted by Isabo
I think it would be best if you don't drink. Like many smokers who stop it only takes one to get started again and you did have a problem before.
Perhaps' though, you don't need to be so paranoid about alcohol in tiramisu etc.

...I know of someone fell off the wagon. It started with a dressing/gravy of some sort that had Brandy. He told me that after 15 years, the cravings hit him again after that meal. He hit rock bottom again...sometimes something as minor as that is all that it takes...

Based on the limited information, my suggestion is dont do it. Disregard any good ol boy macho comments, "one wont hurt ya" ...just steer clear altogether.

My 2 cents...

[K.B.]

I guess it all depends on what you want out of life Christian;

If your goal is to be good at fine dining - go for it. Become an expert on the art.

If on the other hand you want to impact the world or its occupants in a positive manner then put your efforts into that. We each get an unknown number of years to make "our mark", or have the fun we want. Some people spend a lot of their time/money into their children, their church, spouse, job, hobby, or whatever they want to. What would you tell your children to do? What advise would you give to someone else who posted as you did. Should they drink? or could that time effort and money go into something else. Even if you figure you spend 2 hours a week on drinking - that amounts to 1000 hours in 10 years. Or figure $20 a week for the next 30 years - there is enough to buy a $30,000 Porsche!

Some people can do the moderation thing and some can't - If you think you can and should, I suggest you put into writing exactly what you are planning, what are the limits. Make it very clear what is unacceptable and give it to your wife - if you cross the line based on her opinion of what you put into print- you are all done for good. You will do to AA meetings, psycologists, meds, what ever is appropriate to put a lid on it for good. If she decides the experiment failed, even if it only failed by a little bit - thats it - no warning, no arguments, finished - never again.

KB

[nostatic]

---

[Don Ro]

Originally posted by A Quiet Boom
...frankly when people tell me I can't do something I get obsessive about proving them wrong.

You're not willing to stop perseverating over this.
How's that?
.
Again, good luck.
***
What I meant to communicate was:
Given what you claim in that statement, get obsessive about proving this wrong:

You're not willing to stop perseverating over this.
.

[juan ruiz]

I havent have a drink in 16 years not a beer wine nothing, the only thing I miss is been able to do stupid staff and get away with it because Iwas drunk, overhaul my life has been much better without, and after all this years I dont think I will ever drink again.

[WOODPIE]

Christian,

I don't know if you are diseased or not. You do seem to be rationalizing six ways to next Tuesday, however, and that might say something about it.

I spent the seventies, eighties, and nineties, drunk. Now that is a lot of wasted time, right there, I'll tell ya'.

Quit wasting your time thinking about it. There are far, far better things in life.

Ed

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by A Quiet Boom
I told him I was drinking too often IMO.

I personally have never met a real alcoholic who would say this. I can say that I've had some experience with this. My mother, father, and sister are alcoholics. My mom seems to just handle it for the most part even though she has been caught drinking at work. My dad sits in his basement and drinks to make his poor choices go away. My sister is in prison as we speak. I should also mention my former girlfriend/fiancee who was found dead on her bathroom floor from liver failure. She was a beautiful 35 year old woman, a former debutant, and had 3.5 mil in the bank. Just saying that stat to indicate that it's a disease that has no boundries.

So my take is that a person either has it or doesn't. My next oldest sister and I don't. We drink occasionally and never to excess. All of the other people mentioned above denied they had a problem even when I was bailing them out of jail(sister and girlfriend). If you had other problems in your life that caused you to seek asylum from the real world in a bottle, that doesn't necessarily make you an alcoholic imo. Now that your life is on an even keel, I can understand why you would miss it. Good drink is a pleasure. Is it worth wrecking your life? Hell no. However, if your not really in jeopardy, why go without?

I don't know you so I can't say for sure. I guess I might proceed with caution. Try a nice red wine maybe. Dabble in single malt on occasion. A nice cold one after mowing the lawn on a hot day goes down good too. BUT-if it ever becomes more than recreation-STOP. Don't EVER drink to relieve stress. Never drink to excess. Only do it because you like the taste and mild buzz. Now I'm going to have a Balvenie 15 and reflect on this input. I pray to God your as strong willed as you claim if this should become a problem.

I'm sure this advice sounds ludicrous to many. It even makes ME nervous. You just don't fit the type that I've been exposed to though. Good luck.

[A Quiet Boom]

Everyone here has such good advice, I really like K.B. suggestions especially the contract with the wife. It's important to note that I'm not talking about everyday or even every week, I'm talking about those times when the wife and I get to sit down to a nice meal by ourselves when our daughter is away or when we go out to dinner. I DO NOT miss getting drunk, in fact that's what scares me the most, it's been so long even one drink might get me a strong buzz and that's not what this is about. Mainly I enjoy the finer things in life and I enjoy all that I can in moderation. Let's take Starbucks for example, I love their caps but it would be ludicrous to spend $4 on a cup of coffee everyday let alone the drive so I go without unless I happen to be in the area, same goes for fine restaurants, spending $100 plus on dinner when you're saving for a child's education is crazy unless you only do it every now and then. Not drinking all these years, staying out of bars and living the home life has allowed me to afford my P-car and a bunch of other stuff I wouldn't have if I spent a lot of time drinking like many do.

If someone asked me the same question I'd probably do the safe thing and tell them not to drink. I have spoken with my brother, sister and best friend, all of whom where around when I had my problem and all of whom have agreed to abide by and help me with my decision either way. Right now I'm leaning against it mainly out of fear because I've never tested myself. I'm afraid that I might falter under the influence and frankly that's what's really bothering me. All these years of facing my fears and overcoming them and here is a fear I'm afraid to challenge. I'd like to have a glass now and then but I've yet to define what now and then really means. I also enjoy being in control after being controlled by PD for so many years and I'm not to keen on giving up even a little control, I miss the taste not the buzz, I've tried the NA wines and they just don't have the quality. I drank NA beer for many years after I quit but somehow a few years back I lost interest in that so I just drink tonic and lime at social events. But right there is another one of those justifications, NA beer still contains some alcohol yet I never had a problem with it. Never had a problem going to bars and not drinking either until I got bored dealing with drunk people, I only went to play pool with the wife or friends but now I don't even do that anymore. Now I just enjoy working hard at work and on the little CNC business I'm trying to get going and then coming home to relax with the wife and kid.

Anyway I have an appointment with the doctor on Thurs, I just might print out this thread and show it to him and I think I'll hold off on any decisions for awhile. Thanks to you guys I now have lots of questions to ask the doc.

[Beethoven]

Just a word from the 'European' perspective, Christian. All my friends across the pond probably drink too much, but I wouldn't consider any of them alcoholics. People here are very quick diagnosim something as a physical or even genetic disease that's really just a lack of self-control. My friend's drinking is almost entirely social. And it also mostly has to do with good drink: fine wines mostly, but also good beers, rarely spirits.

As I grew older I realized that I couldn't take it anymore. I enjoyed the drinking and the company, but I loathed the mornings after, just hated them. It's got to be something with my metabolism, but it's an unbearable feeling. So I really pick and choose when to drink--when the company is fantastic (or absolutely insuffrable with a sober mind), or when someone pours a really very good wine.

You are the only one in this thread who mentioned a specific drink (Chateau Lafitte--good luck finding one you can afford!), and I've got to agree with you that the prospect of never again being able to appreciate that taste (and a few others) would drive me to despair. It doesn't look to me that you're in a position to go out and buy a case of the stuff (who is, if you've Porsche in the garage??), so why don't you stick to your original idea of buying yourself a bottle on your retirement? Or if someone you know decides to open a good bottle--you have a culinary degree, so you know that a good bottles retails for above $100--you have a glass. Everything below isn't worth it. Hey, that way you're not concernend with alcoholism, you're just a wine snob! Welcome to my world....

[adamred]

I've been working for the past 6 months on a new drug for alcholism, won't mention the name, certainly not a commercial for the drug. I have met with dozens of addiction specialists, docs, counselors, etc in support of the drug. The one thing many have mentioned in their talks is that a certain percentage of alcohol abusers (maybe as much as 20%) can go back to "normal" "social" drinking without a full relapse into addiction.

The problem of course, there is no way to predict who will is in the 20% and as such addiction specialists rarely let this information be known so as not to risk having their patients lapse back into active abuse.

Just my 2 cents from working a bit in the field...I feel for you there are times when I have questioned my own drinking and thought how I angry I would be with myself if I couldn't enjoy the pleasure of a glass of wine or a cool beer because I had ruined it for myself, that and my beautiful wife and kids keep me on track....

Best of luck to you.
Adam

[MichiganMat]

Ask any recovering alcoholic and they will tell you:

- Its not the last drink that gets them drunk, its the first
- Those who do "go back out" immediately return to the behavior they had when they were drinking, no matter how long they had been sober
- As a disease alcoholism is an alergy of the mind and body. The behavior can be present without ever taking a drink refered to as "being dry" or "dry drunk".
- Without a program of recovery, the craving of the mind and body never leave the alcoholic.
- Recovered people never feel the urge to drink, ever.

[targa911S]

If you are asking yourself questions like that you are one step away from enabling yourself to pick up right where you left off. Get to a meeting...today!

[creaturecat]

Originally posted by targa911S
If you are asking yourself questions like that you are one step away from enabling yourself to pick up right where you left off. Get to a meeting...today!

got to agree - stay away from the stuff ! Everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain.

[gaijindabe]

Originally posted by Beethoven
Just a word from the 'European' perspective, Christian. All my friends across the pond probably drink too much, but I wouldn't consider any of them alcoholics. People here are very quick diagnosim something as a physical or even genetic disease that's really just a lack of self-control. My friend's drinking is almost entirely social. And it also mostly has to do with good drink: fine wines mostly, but also good beers, rarely spirits.

Like our relationship with food, other cultures seem to treat alcohol differently.

I have spent a lot of time in Japan, where they too drink to excess (in our eyes anyway) but seem to have less problems with alcohol. But them again, they have social pressures we know nothing about..

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by targa911S
If you are asking yourself questions like that you are one step away from enabling yourself to pick up right where you left off. Get to a meeting...today!

Here's where I put on my nomex.

That sentiment is surely elicited by someone very familiar with the 12 step club. Problem is, 12 steppers tend to err to the conservative side. Many also, in my opinion, tend to think anyone that shows even the slightest symptom, is an alcoholic like them. However, many people can drink more than two beers a night, or drink when their stressed, or get drunk more than once a month (remember college?-I don't) and not really be an alcoholic.

I can't define what IS an alcoholic, but I sure have lived close to many. The ones that are recovering, or even have recovered (if there is such a thing), tend to give advice like the that quoted above. Alcoholics need to reenforce others in order to reenforce themselves. Not a thing wrong with that. It's a tough addiction that ruins a lot of lives. But, it is up to the individual to really decide if he or she is an alcoholic. Once the decision is made to have that drink, it's critical to be on the watch for trouble signs.

Is it worth it? That is up to the individual. Despite the fact that I drink rarely, I would miss it; just as I would if someone told me I could never eat pizza, or ice-cream, or drive my Porsche....you get the idea. Just because you crave alcohol, just as you crave the foods above, doesn't mean you're dependant. It just means you want it. If it starts wrecking your life-then it's a no-brainer.

No offense meant to anyone by this post. If you know you shouldn't drink-you're right.

[white87911]

Well Cristian, for me to explian my whole feelings on this matter, my fingers would fall off. But, here is a summary:
Started drinking when I was @12 years old.
Was getting drunk at least once a week by the age of 16.
Started doing pot and LSD @ 16.
At 18 years old, went to jail, lost my drivers liecense of 1.5 years. Stopped drinking @ 19.
Attended 12 step meeting for 5+ years. (Have some of the best times in my life and met some of the greatest people).
Started to slow down on meetings after about 5 years and when I met my wife who did not go.
After 10 years of not drinking (2001), decided that my life had changed and I was not the same person that I was when I was 18, and I could have a drink once in a while.
Started drinking occasionally end of 2001, within 6 -9 months back to getting drunk once a week.
2003 getting drunk 2-3 times a week.
2005-2005 trying really hard to not get drunk as much.
I have no "real" hardships in my life, I dont know why I do it so much, I never did know when to say when.

So are you like me? Dont know, you could be, you might not.

It is something that only you can find out, and it might take you a while, like it did with me.

Personally when people said "big risk, low reward" I think they are right.

Erik

[speeder]

Originally posted by Sebring77
Here's where I put on my nomex.

That sentiment is surely elicited by someone very familiar with the 12 step club. Problem is, 12 steppers tend to err to the conservative side. Many also, in my opinion, tend to think anyone that shows even the slightest symptom, is an alcoholic like them. However, many people can drink more than two beers a night, or drink when their stressed, or get drunk more than once a month (remember college?-I don't) and not really be an alcoholic.

I can't define what IS an alcoholic, but I sure have lived close to many. The ones that are recovering, or even have recovered (if there is such a thing), tend to give advice like the that quoted above. Alcoholics need to reenforce others in order to reenforce themselves.

No need for nomex from me; I'm in "recovery" and agree w/ everything that you typed. (Almost).

Many people in 12 step programs do feel a need to over-generalise and diagnose all of their friends and family, it has always annoyed me to be honest. I have no bone, or jealousy, w/ people who can drink and/or smoke weed and keep it together, ie. their state of mind/relationships/career/health/etc....

It's just that in my experience, (and I have a ton of it), no real alcoholic ever regains control and can drink "like a gentleman" again. Maybe w/ a lobotomy, but that's a little extreme for the pleasure of a little fine wine.

No doubt about it, alcoholic beverages add pleasure to the lives of millions of people in the world w/o any negative effect on their lives. But if you are one of the 10-20% of people whose life is unmanageable behind drinking or drugs, there is no contest between a life drunk one in recovery. 12 step, or AA recovery is a lot more than just not drinking. Hell, a real alcoholic white-knuckling it can be worse than being drunk, MUCH worse.

If I just quit drinking w/o a program and support group, I would not be the charming individual that you all know and love here on the OT board. I'd be up on my roof w/ a deer rifle dealing w/ the people who double park and use their horn for a doorbell in front of my building.

I'm telling you, the choice is not drink and enjoy life vs. deprive myself of pleasure forever. It's more like have a pathetic life of unbelievable sadness and disapointment vs. one hell of a lot of fun, missing absolutely nothing. And the cost of the wonderful life is one drink, the one that I choose not to have every day. It's the biggest no-brainer in history.

I have major fun at parties and clubs where most everyone else is drinking, it's rare that anyone even notices that I am not. That is the definition of real recovery, IMO. I couldn't even take out the trash w/o a little buzz on before this chapter.