2nd Amendment

[competentone]

Originally posted by ubiquity0
Competentone: there is an awful lot more than "a few thousand" guns in Australia. Something like 700,000 were destroyed in the govt's 'buyback' scheme, and this was believed to be 1/7th of the guns at that time (19.4% of households there own guns, versus 39% in the US). Hence there must still be several million guns, not "a few thousand".

Just looked it up (Australian Gov. numbers):
"As of 1 July 2001 there were....2,165,170 firearms in Australia."

5.2% of the adult population of Australia own firearms.

So my comments, taking Australia into consideration just looking at "firearms" generally, isn't accurate.

For the point I was making, you can leave Australia out of the picture, or you can consider the issue of types of firearms -- for example, in Australia there are virtually no privately owned semi-auto pistols; compare the gun homicide rates in the U.S. involving semi-auto handguns to the gun homicide rates in Australia with the same type of pistol, then consider percentages measured against the legally owned guns...

My overall point (that some seem to be missing here) is that it is not the gun that is causing anything. It is a people issue; focusing on "guns" isn't a solution to crime problems.

[CamB]

For the point I was making, you can leave Australia out of the picture, or you can consider the issue of types of firearms -- for example, in Australia there are virtually no privately owned semi-auto pistols; compare the gun homicide rates in the U.S. involving semi-auto handguns to the gun homicide rates in Australia with the same type of pistol, then consider percentages measured against the legally owned guns...

My overall point (that some seem to be missing here) is that it is not the gun that is causing anything. It is a people issue; focusing on "guns" isn't a solution to crime problems.

Yeah the old story... guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people. More freely available guns mean more people with more guns kill more people.

Somehow, more dead people (per head of population) is something you want to use to use to somehow justify your argument (because there are EVEN MORE guns per head of population).

I can't prove this, and believe me I've tried (just search the archives here), but I am strongly suspicious that pretty much the sole reason for the increased gun homicide in the US is due to the availability of handguns.

Which would make intuitive sense, because they are portable and concealable, and make a great weapon in a crime of passion.

In New Zealand, there are very, very few handguns (tons of rifles/shotguns though). I'm pretty sure (from prior research) that we have relatively similar violent crime stats to the US - excepting gun crime - and in fact may be slightly higher up on stabbings and so on. This is because people don't often settle a dispute with a firearm.

And when you settle a dispute with a knife, the person is a lot less likely to die. This is intuitive, and common sense.

The whole "guns are good" premise seems to ride on the necessity of having more guns to deter the baddies with guns.

Should everyone have a gun? A requirement to bear arms?

I dunno. In all seriousness, while I could dream up what I think is an appropriate level of gun control (eg, no handguns except for collectors & sport shooting and transportation to sport shooting, no assault rifles, somewhat restrictive ownership), the crux of the matter is that in the US there is no way you can implement it in a way which accomplishes the goal.

Basically, IMHO, you are screwed. The country is so awash in guns that in a practical sense, no gun amnesty would ever get them in and no prohibition would ever take them out of the hands of criminal elements.

Perhaps an analysis of how you got yourselves into that mess is more appropriate

[Moneyguy1]

competent:

Glad you bit.

Automobiles: Primary purpose is to provide transportation. Hammer: primary purpose is to drive nails. I could go on but even you should get the Gist. What is the primary purpose of an assault rifle?

I am sure happy that most of a continent separate us.

Cheers!!

[350HP930]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
What is the primary purpose of an assault rifle?

As an old song says about a cheap handgun, "to put a man six feet deep in a hole" . . .

[lendaddy]

Though it sounds goofy, the whole idea is that we are able to own weapons powerful (competatively) enough to kill those in government when/if we are opressed. To protect us from our own government.

Sure it sounds crazy now, but that was really the whole point.

[ubiquity0]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Though it sounds goofy, the whole idea is that we are able to own weapons powerful (competatively) enough to kill those in government when/if we are opressed. To protect us from our own government.

Sure it sounds crazy now, but that was really the whole point.

hmmmm... don't start putting ideas into anyone's head

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Though it sounds goofy, the whole idea is that we are able to own weapons powerful (competatively) enough to kill those in government when/if we are opressed. To protect us from our own government.

Sure it sounds crazy now, but that was really the whole point.

It doesn't just SOUND crazy.

That's the whole point of the 2nd amendment? I don't think the founders were worried about protecting the people from their own government. The militia was intended to provide a military arm in defense of a young nation that didn't have a tax base to pay for a standing professional army.

[350HP930]

I believe jefferson himself stated that the people need the ability to overthrow the government with force when it no longer responds to more civilized mechanisms for change.

[350HP930]

Thomas Jefferson said . . .
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

[lendaddy]

I can't believe we are in agreement 350

There are many other quotes from the founders saying the same thing. The people (when organized en mass) were ALWAYS to be more powerful than the government.

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by competentone
it is not the gun that is causing anything. It is a people issue; focusing on "guns" isn't a solution to crime problems.

Gun control is not a solution to crime problems. It is a partial solution to gun violence.

Gun control did - accidently I guess - reduce homicides in AUS both in total numbers and in rate.

Still don't believe the 2nd Amendment was meant to certify an individual citiznes right to any type or number of weapons. And I don't believe it prohibits gun control.

[JSDSKI]

Good point, 350. He was referring to England, of course, and I don't believe he ever imagined a home grown government of "absolute despotism", but your point is well made.

[350HP930]

You don't have to believe it steve, but the historical and legal facts are that it does.

You also can also refuse to believe that the sun will rise tomorrow but it doesn't change the fact that it will.

Originally posted by JSDSKI
Good point, 350. He was referring to England, of course, and I don't believe he ever imagined a home grown government of "absolute despotism", but your point is well made.

So you think he was referring to england as "governmentS"?

[competentone]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
That's the whole point of the 2nd amendment? I don't think the founders were worried about protecting the people from their own government. The militia was intended to provide a military arm in defense of a young nation that didn't have a tax base to pay for a standing professional army.

Wow! I can see you really haven't spent much time studying the history of the United States.

Yes, my "assault" weapons could be used -- in cooperation with other citizens -- to overthrow a criminal government. It is a last resort option to preserve freedom.

My firearms and willingness to use them defensively sounds like it's something that scares you -- which goes back to my earlier question: What do you want to do to me that you think my firearms are something that threaten you? If you respect my rights and do not intend to initiate violence against me, you'll never find yourself on the barrel end of my firearms.

Aside from their defensive use, I also love to use my "assault" weapons for fun. Assault weapons are sort of like sports cars -- in the normal routine of life, they do not have a whole lot of practical value, but they can be a he!! of a lot of fun! You seemed to have missed the analogy in my earlier post, or perhaps you've never spent an afternoon plinking with an AK-47?

[lendaddy]

" ... but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights ..."
-- Alexander Hamilton

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
-- Alexander Hamilton

[lendaddy]

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson

There, I'm done for now. You're just wrong and should spend some time studying before speaking with such conviction....lest you be thought a fool

[350HP930]

Originally posted by competentone
Wow! I can see you really haven't spent much time studying the history of the United States.

I second that opinion.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
Gun control did - accidently I guess - reduce homicides in AUS both in total numbers and in rate.

What would account for the reduced homicide rates before gun control in Australia? Look at all the numbers. Look at the graph. Those figures show absolutely no evidence of a causitive effect. You can't just look at the downward trend after the gun ban and ignore the downward trend before the ban.

Like I said earlier, if someone wants to believe gun control works, even facts to the contrary aren't going to change their mind.

-Chris

[Rob Channell]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
I'm not trying to take away your guns. I don't think there is an exact formulaic relationship of the number of guns to the number of homicide deaths. Your argument apparently assumes everyone with a gun either wants to kill someone or commit a crime with a gun. Gun control is just one way to reduce gun death and gun related crime. What is your solution?

Capitol punishment for killing someone............It wouldn't completely stop violent crime, but it would sure as h*ll cut down on the number of repeat offenders.

[CamB]

Ok. So you need to be able to bear arms so you can rise up against your own govt.

I have two questions:

1) If you rise up against the govt, is it treason, or exercising your second amendment right? Further, is it treason if you lose and just "victory" if you win?

2) If you need to have the right to bear arms, as a well regulated militia is essential (see above), why do you need the arms for any other reason? Shouldn't the arms be locked away in all other circumstances?

You might as well just repeal the Second Amendment and start afresh on the whole issue of gun control without that outdated legislation getting in the way. It wouldn't be the first time an amendment was repealed (anyone for Prohibition?).


Another thing occured to me as well - there is an argument about the porosity of borders making gun control (and keeping guns out of criminals' hands) impossible... you know, the old argument that if you make it hard for regular people to get guns you just hand the advantage to the criminals. So... how do you explain that there is so much lower gun crime in Canada (with gun control and an essentially open border).