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-   -   "Judge Orders Schiavo Feeding Tube Removed" - How do you guys feel about this? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/211677-judge-orders-schiavo-feeding-tube-removed-how-do-you-guys-feel-about.html)

widebody911 03-21-2005 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikester
I suppose the real question is when was the last honest attempt at rehab and what was the outcome? Should she be reviewed again by new doctors choosen by the courts and not the parents or the husband. You can get a professional witness to say what ever you want from what I understand.
Pragmatically, what is realistically the absolute best outcome from said therapy? I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV, but from what I've read of her brain damage, it doesn't sound like there's much left to work with.

mikester 03-21-2005 11:30 AM

I just don't think "realistic" expectations can be established here Thom but don't get me wrong I'm on the same side as you for the most part.

But that would be the question I would have to ask. Can she be rehabilitated into someone with at least a chance to have a life where when her parents visit; when her husband visits; when someone visits that it is apparent to everyone involved that she is alive and awake for the visit. It's rough seeing a loved one go through this and I couldn't imagine what 14 years of it would do but I do know what a year of it did to my Wife as she watched her father die in a home. Back and forth into the hospital as he went from a man with problems requiring constant help in caring for himself to...well...to someone we loved who was in dire straights in a hospital bed.

The first question was always - can he recover; can he be helped.

She had Doctors who when asked for it straight and level - what are the options for recovery - gave her the straight and level. It was hard but she was strong eventually however his own body made the desicion for us.

The husband is getting a real bad rap because if anyone is going to - it'll be the husband. He didn't give birth to the girl and can be considered and "outsider" to some extent.

mede8er 03-21-2005 11:33 AM

The government has no business here........:mad:

mikester 03-21-2005 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mede8er
The government has no business here........:mad:
No, they do have their business here but the Judicial branch has handled it to resolution.

It's the right to life GOP pundits pandering to their "it-crowd" that I believe are dragging this out and doing more harm than good.

This is not appropriate or timely.

dd74 03-21-2005 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Pandering. Hypocritical.

And we are promised less intrusive government?

Exactly! Schiavo is a chess piece. It's everyone's rights that are now in jeopardy. Thank you religious right Republicans. It's alright to kill millions throughout the world for little reason, but when it comes to letting a loved one go they proclaim biblical and moralistic nonsense.

Moneyguy1 03-21-2005 11:51 AM

dd..

I am still waiting for that cogent, well thought out defense of our leaders on this issue.

Should be interesting, don't you think?

dd74 03-21-2005 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
dd..

I am still waiting for that cogent, well thought out defense of our leaders on this issue.

Should be interesting, don't you think?

We both shall wait for a long time. No defense exists that doesn't render them hypocrites on this issue.

bryanthompson 03-21-2005 01:24 PM

The bill states:
Quote:

The United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida shall have jurisdiction to hear, determine, and render judgment on a suit or claim by or on behalf of Theresa Marie Schiavo for the alleged violation of any right of Theresa Marie Schiavo under the Constitution or laws of the United States relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life.
...
SEC. 5. NO CHANGE OF SUBSTANTIVE RIGHTS.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to create substantive rights not otherwise secured by the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the several States.

SEC. 6. NO EFFECT ON ASSISTING SUICIDE.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to confer additional jurisdiction on any court to consider any claim related--
(1) to assisting suicide, or
(2) a State law regarding assisting suicide.

SEC. 7. NO PRECEDENT FOR FUTURE LEGISLATION.

Nothing in this Act shall constitute a precedent with respect to future legislation, including the provision of private relief bills.

SEC. 8. NO AFFECT ON THE PATIENT SELF-DETERMINATION ACT OF 1990.

Nothing in this Act shall affect the rights of any person under the Patient Self- Determination Act of 1990.
What is the outrage here? There are laws created all the time based on individual cases-gun laws immediately come to mind.

From terrysfight.org:
Quote:

Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year. His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14 independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute of Terri’s ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence, Terri’s husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself “Dr. Death”, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with Terri.
If you don't personally want to live like that, fine, WRITE IT THE HELL DOWN and your wishes will be followed. This case won't change that. This case gives a chance for her parents to appeal to the District Court. Doesn't her family at least deserve a little review?

bryanthompson 03-21-2005 01:29 PM

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/BRAI...0321105305.jpg
her tongue, lips, mouth, skin will crack from dehydration. She will feel pain, and it will be a miserable death.

stevepaa 03-21-2005 01:35 PM

Well, what if she had written it down. The parents might still challenge it because she was under his influence or whatever? What if it was the other way around. The husband wanting her to be alive and the parents seeking an end to it?

I think this case has had its full share of review and I am not on one side or the other.

mede8er 03-21-2005 01:41 PM

Quote:

No, they do have their business here but the Judicial branch has handled it to resolution.
Let me clarify...the Federal government......

Terri's parents 'gave her away' at her wedding...the husbands testimony to Terri's wishes must stand......

bryanthompson 03-21-2005 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stevepaa
Well, what if she had written it down. The parents might still challenge it because she was under his influence or whatever?
That is absolutely ridiculous. If it were written down, it would have been handled according to the law and she would have died 15 years ago. Instead, her "husband" waited 7 years to remember that she had told him that she wanted to die.

Quote:

What if it was the other way around. The husband wanting her to be alive and the parents seeking an end to it?
I don't see how that changes anything. I would go with the husband if that were the case. Instead he ran off with some other woman, fathered children with the other woman, and now wants his wife dead.

bryanthompson 03-21-2005 01:48 PM

Quote:

Terri's parents 'gave her away' at her wedding...the husbands testimony to Terri's wishes must stand......
He also took an oath to stick by her in sickness and in health, until death. His word isn't enough to kill her, heresay wouldn't be enough in any court if we were talking about a murderer.

mikester 03-21-2005 01:52 PM

Scott Peterson was convicted with circumstantial evidence alone.

mede8er 03-21-2005 01:57 PM

Quote:

I don't see how that changes anything. I would go with the husband if that were the case. Instead he ran off with some other woman, fathered children with the other woman, and now wants his wife dead.
The husband could have filed for divorce and didn't....Why?

Because he felt he had to protect Terri's wishes until they were carried out.........

Dan in Pasadena 03-21-2005 02:02 PM

In the absence of disagreement by the immediate family, removal of feeding tubes is done routinely. In a vegetive state, the person would experience nothing.

If she made it clear to her husband that she didn't want extraoridnary measures? I hate the idea of the government imposing its morality on her when she cannot speak for herself. Flame away.

stevepaa 03-21-2005 02:08 PM

Bryan, it seems that you are really arguing for life at any means under any circumstances. That's fine and a worthy goal.

But I think the law has already ruled several times on this. The husband has the rights, not the parents. And I would find that objectionable for my daughters, also. So unless there is new law, the courts will probably rule the same. And I do not mean to have someone make a comment on how liberal courts are always making new law.

bryanthompson 03-21-2005 02:26 PM

I don't believe in terminating the life of someone who can't speak for herself, based on the word of her husband alone. That really pretty much sums it up. If it had been in writing and there was absolutely no doubt that she would have wanted to die, then I don't have a problem with that.

tc-sacto 03-21-2005 03:00 PM

I'm not a doctor, but there was one on the local radio here describing the process the body goes through as Bryanthompson illustrated above. What the illustration does not show, according to this doctor, is that as the feeding tube is removed they start the patient on a morphine drip. As the body goes through starvation the kidneys will eventually shut down and the person will die. A very cruel death when experienced without drugs, but with the morphine dirp the patient will feel no pain, simply slip away to the other side.

Recently I watched my grandmother dying of lung cancer. She was on a morphine drip as they took her off the resperator and she went peacefully into the night.

mede8er 03-21-2005 03:01 PM

The husbands testimony was corroborated by Terri's friends whom she had confided in.......


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