Choices have consequences

[island911]

.. .and what if a country had a large aging population . .. with a relatively small number of potential Doc's in the system?

[stevepaa]

Fint, trying to move a block of kids out of a school into other schools is a logistics nightmare. You'd need at least a years' warning to get portables ordered, select teachers, etc.

You don't think a school can just absorb kids into existing classes?

Look at a single class of 30 kids, and say ten parents want their ten kids to be added to that class because the teacher is great. It won't happen. The rooms are too small, and the teacher, though flattered, would tell you that he/she wouldn't do it as it would just be too much to handle.

Oh, and complaining to the principal does work. The fact that you dismiss it, indicates you are not really attempting to get rid of selected teachers, but are of a mindset that the system is broken and needs radical surgery to fix. It ain't so.

[island911]

Bad teachers are a good thing.

They have a great purpose.

Kids need to learn early on, that supposed authority, the "to be listened to" experts, are just posing frauds with a title.

The sooner they learn that every proffesion has pathetic frauds, the better.

THAT is a lesson I have never seen in a text-book.

[fintstone]

Bad teachers, bad administrators, bad curriculum..all should be disposed of...but currently there is no way to identify any of them unless they are teachers caught sleeping with students. School systems in the US are designed that way (the NEA sees to it) and colleges are similar (tenure). poor grades, test scores are easily explained away as the parent's fault. Once again, if schools had to compete with other govt and private schools for funds...things would change. As a monopoly, it is in their best interest to maintain stus quo. Of course that is why the liberals are so against a voucher system.

[350HP930]

And there are the looney right wing parents who think that the liberals, communists and unions are all participating in a conspiracy to destroy america through the public education system.

Tell us more about this bad curriculum of which you speak? Is it the sex education and evolution they are exposing your poor child's defenseless mind to that has you all in a tizzy?

[lendaddy]

I for the most part agree Flint. Though I would add that it's likely a passive movement. I don't think 99% of those in education choose to suck Rather they are velocitized by the system. Heck I've said it many times here, good luck. It's simply taboo to suggest poor performance from anyone in education or other "public service" for that matter. Guess what....not all teachers just want to help kids, not all cops want to make the streets safer and not all firemen are selfless heroes. Unbelievable I know! But given my druthers I'll tip a few with the FD and PD

Oh, Expat....if that is really how you approach your job then kudos you are the prototype! In my many years in public education I did not know ONE single teacher that did what you say on anything near a regular basis. Most were closer to the exact opposite.

[350HP930]

The low pay provided by most public schools guarantees poor teachers.

If you want to fix the major crux of the problem its pretty simple but too many cheap selfish bastards are against paying more into their public education systems.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by 350HP930
The low pay provided by most public schools guarantees poor teachers.

If you want to fix the major crux of the problem its pretty simple but too many cheap selfish bastards are against paying more into their public education systems.

Making school teachers "heavily compensated" is simple not realistic. So unless you go balls out on wages it will never be enough to not be used as a crutch. You need to work on the other drivers in human nature....vanity (recognition), pride, and maybe a little fear [gasp].

What pray tell is the current motivator of teachers? I mean at the most primal level.

[nostatic]

It is a mix. Some go into teaching because they love it, and want to make a difference. Some go into it because it is the fallback position if their other plans fall through. Some go into it because it is the path of least resistance. My experience says the last group is pretty damn small.

Studies have shown that on average, private school students don't do better than public school students in college. imho most kids go to private school because the parents either want to control some aspect of the education/experience (ie religious schools), or want a "safer" school for their kids. The latter is a mix of reality and racism imho. Then their kids get into private schools with even less acountability and teachers that have no accreditation, etc. Just because it is private doesn't make it better.

Oh, and charter schools? Mostly marketing. Its all about the brand. And my son goes to a public charter school...but not for the charter, but rather because it is the local public school. now we did move specifically to get into a decent public school, but public nonetheless.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by 350HP930
And there are the looney right wing parents who think that the liberals, communists and unions are all participating in a conspiracy to destroy america through the public education system.

Tell us more about this bad curriculum of which you speak? Is it the sex education and evolution they are exposing your poor child's defenseless mind to that has you all in a tizzy?

Whether it is a conspiracy or accident doesn't really matter...the problem is that no-one is happy. Teachers don't think they are respected or paid well enough; parents think that many schools and teachers are incompetent and children are not getting educated properly. It doesn't matter if the curriculum is liberal or conservative. If I want my child to be able to pray in school and learn the truth about Kerry and Fonda and you want your child to learn about threesomes with sheep and the communist manifesto..that is our right. Any parent that thinks public schools teach inappropriate materials should have the right to send there child and the money the school gets to educate their child...and send both to a school that teaches materials they approve of. Competition would improve schools for everyone.

[CamB]

It won't work fint - to get the "good" teachers, the "good" schools are going to have to pay them more. This will require more funding (ie, a top-up by parents on the average cost per student you want the govt to give you back for opting out).

This is just going to create a wider gap between elite and mediocre schools based on the wealth of the parents of children attending those schools - even wider than the current socio-economic gap that occurs.

You may think this is ok, but I don't. Education (at school level) is a public good, and I don't complain about what is spent on it out of my taxes.

Why don't you compare America's education spending (total govt spending) against military spending. That always staggers me...

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by fintstone
It doesn't matter if the curriculum is liberal or conservative. If I want my child to be able to pray in school and learn the truth about Kerry and Fonda and you want your child to learn about threesomes with sheep and the communist manifesto..that is our right.

Fint. You need to provide concrete examples of how any teacher/school has a political agenda. What exactly do you disagree with in what your children are being taught? And if you want to have prayer in the school then you really need to send them to a religious based school, not the public school system.
Is all this a ruse to get a voucher to send them to a religious school?

If any teacher was trying to teach politics, we would just complain to the school and it would stop, but I have never perceived any teacher to be doing that. Again, it seems you do not want to use the process available to solve your perceived problems, but just lambaste the system with innuendo.

Joel, again I submit that your experience is not the norm and that most teachers I knew and taught with were like Expat. And most teachers my children have had have done the same. I have only had issues with two teachers, and they left after complaints to the principal.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by CamB
It won't work fint - to get the "good" teachers, the "good" schools are going to have to pay them more. This will require more funding (ie, a top-up by parents on the average cost per student you want the govt to give you back for opting out).

This is just going to create a wider gap between elite and mediocre schools based on the wealth of the parents of children attending those schools - even wider than the current socio-economic gap that occurs.

You may think this is ok, but I don't. Education (at school level) is a public good, and I don't complain about what is spent on it out of my taxes.

Why don't you compare America's education spending (total govt spending) against military spending. That always staggers me...

So much money is wasted in public schools now that it would probably save money. When I worked with many different schools (hundreds)in the US as a Regional Director for admissions......I was suprised to see that the average cost per student was much higher in the worse schools...and generally lower in the private schools....and the scores were very much higher.
You assume that poor students are stupid and cost more to educate. I disagree.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Fint. You need to provide concrete examples of how any teacher/school has a political agenda. What exactly do you disagree with in what your children are being taught? And if you want to have prayer in the school then you really need to send them to a religious based school, not the public school system.
Is all this a ruse to get a voucher to send them to a religious school?

If any teacher was trying to teach politics, we would just complain to the school and it would stop, but I have never perceived any teacher to be doing that. Again, it seems you do not want to use the process available to solve your perceived problems, but just lambaste the system with innuendo.

....

Why would I need to do that? As I posted, it really does not matter if they teach your politics or mine. They clearly should not teach either. But if I must..basically they teach the lefty view of things on this BBS, not mine. Teachers are the brightest people on earth..but way underpaid. Company CEOs are all corrupt and their money should be taken away and they should be jailed. Global cooling is ruining the Earth; global warming is ruining the earth, both are cause by conservatives. Taxes need to be raised. Socialism is preferable to capitalism. 911 is the US faullt, and we deserve what we got. We were a bunch of baby killers in Vietnam...military guys are stupid and just guys who cannot find other work. Hard working successful people are bad and don't pay their fair share, homeless people or folks on welfare are good and just victims of "the system." You should be able to have sex whenever, with whomever you choose. They even teach technique. Age, sex or species is irrelevant.
Once again, my children should not be taught your morals at school to counteract mine taught at home. Your children should not be taught mine. We should be able to choose our children's schools based on our own values.

[CamB]

But if I must..basically they teach the lefty view of things on this BBS, not mine.

I must stress that those lefty views could be considered in the middle somewhere.

Your list is your post's own worst enemy - I'd have a lot more sympathy if the average high school syllabus covered even half the items with the bias you state. Or more than just the part about sex... the other stuff is just a big laundry list of your grievances against people to the left of, or more liberal than you.

In real life, not BBS arguing, I'm probably considered a pretty conservative person. I'm white, married, earn enough to be taxed at NZ's top tax rate. I was private school educated, went to university and did pst grad in Finance. I work in the finance industry and go to (Catholic) church every week, plus help organise a young adults group and am involved in other youth ministry. I agree wholeheartedly with the vast majority of the Church's teachings.

I favour free markets where possible, and want the lowest, flattest tax rate that is feasible - I ask only for a safety net for those who either cannot, or will not, look after themselves in the way I would. I recognise that I have been dealt a good hand in life, and I can't condemn those who haven't. Yeah, I think corporates need to be controlled, that progressive tax systems are required, and this one will surprise I think that government wastage is a necessary evil. I see it as an inevitable outcome of central control - something that can only be managed but not eliminated. Corporates have their own wastage ... govts are not alone.

But most of all, I believe in people. I believe the average person wants a better world and that we can all work together to achieve it. I DO NOT believe that society should give up on anyone. I especially do not believe that all people are going to help themselves when things are bad --> it's a strange mix of optimism and pessimism.

I am consistently amazed by how far to the right you sit from this. Plus, I am always a little amazed at your apparent disregard for those who would suffer from your schemes. To put it briefly, why don't you care about what happens to them?

[expat]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Oh, Expat....if that is really how you approach your job then kudos you are the prototype! In my many years in public education I did not know ONE single teacher that did what you say on anything near a regular basis. Most were closer to the exact opposite.

You know, I would guarantee you that not one parent in my class would know what I do "out of hours".

As another example, I am the staff rep for our Student Council. We meet at 7.30am each Friday with a bunch of kids interested in doing things in the community and for the school. Not one of my parents have kids in this SC so I doubt they would have heard of my involvement with that.

As a parent myself, I have no idea what commitments my children's teachers make outside the regular contact hours. My guess is Mr Flinstone and others do not either.

[Superman]

You know, I'm getting more and more intolerant of whiners and negative people as time goes on. This bull**** about teachers being nimrods and schools being inefficient and taxes being too high and the mischaracterizations of American liberals (who by the way are probably "moderates" by all other Western standards), is the public/political equivalent of the sad, pathetic, oh-woe-is-me, everything-is-fuched-up whiners I see so often. Well, maybe real often and getting less often because I just cannot stand people who poop in their own living room. That is, if you have to make such a negative place of the world in your mind in order to have the life you want, then you'll have to stop expecting to see me around much because it's jsut not truthful, not productive and not my choice for viewing a world I have to live in.

Let me as you this. Are teachers unusual compared to folks in other walks of life? I mean, do any of you notice that there is a range of capabilities between humans in every profession, and a range of energy level and effectiveness? Teachers are nimrods? Compared to what?

[island911]

ah crap - super & I agree on something. --the world is ending

Originally posted by island911
. ..
The sooner they learn that every proffesion has pathetic frauds, the better.

THAT is a lesson I have never seen in a text-book.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman

Let me as you this. Are teachers unusual compared to folks in other walks of life?

No, and that's the point. The system is what's different. Take a team of engineers and put them under the same setup teachers have and watch their performance go straight to hell.

Any job that you have no consequences and/or rewards regarding your performance will bring you down, common sense soupy.

[island911]

Originally posted by lendaddy
. ..The system is what's different. Take a team of engineers and put them under the same setup teachers have and watch their performance go straight to hell. . . .

as a teacher & an engineer, I can tell you that is spot-on.

A good teacher (or engineer) has to perform well despite those crappy systems. However, If one does perform well in these systems, pressure is quickly brought to that guy, the one making the rest look like the slackers they are.

It is truely amazing how much effort some put in to keeping the mediocrity.

Ironic really; the way some strive so damn hard to become proficient at being mediocre.