Choices have consequences

[fintstone]

THE MONETARY WORTH OF YOUR COLLEGE DEGREE
Neal Boortz
Some of my listeners just can't stand it when I get into my "choices have consequences" mode. So many people just don't want to believe that they are right where they are, economically, socially and in terms of their health, principally because of the cumulative effect of the choices that they have made in their lives.
Some of the most important choices you will make involve education. In the early years it's whether or not you're even going to go to school, and if you do go whether or not you're going to actually apply yourself. Later on you will have to decide if you are going to continue to college ... and what your major will be. CNN has published a survey showing starting salaries for college graduates with various four-year degrees.
]http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college/starting_salaries/?cnn=yes
At the top of the list you will find chemical engineering cashing in at $54,000 a year. Electrical, computer, mechanical, and aerospace engineering all pay over $50,000 a year to start. At the bottom of the list we find liberal arts, and at the bottom of the liberal arts list we find ... what else but teaching. Teaching comes in at $29, 733. Here's some more of the list.
Accounting (private): $44,564
Management trainee: $35,811
Teaching: $29,733
Consulting: $49,781
Sales: $37,130
Accounting (public): $41,039
Financial/Treasury analysis: $45,596
Software design/development: $53,729
Design/construction engineering: $47,058
Registered nurse: $38,775
You will notice that you don't see History, English, Social Work or other such disciplines on that list. If you make the choice to go after those majors, you are making a decision to limit your income potential pretty much throughout your life.
Now ... about the teachers. Low salary, right? Well what would you expect for a profession that fights accountability with its every breath? Chemical engineer, accountant, Registered nurse ... all of these people must be accountable for what they do. If they don't do their job well, it's off to the classified. Teachers? Can you spell tenure? Can you spell NEA? That would be the acronym for the National Education Association, the teacher's union. Every year this union meets to discuss and implement new ways and ideas to make sure that teachers are not held accountable for their successes or failures in the classroom.
A few more points to make about the teaching profession. Studies have shown that generally speaking the college freshman who decide to pursue a degree in education come from the bottom of their entering class. By this I mean that their SAT scores are at the bottom compared to the SAT scores for other entering freshmen. Likewise, college graduates who opt for a master's degree in education generally score at the bottom of their class in the GRE, the Graduate Record Exam, the SAT-like test that goes a long way to deciding who does and who does not get into graduate school.
Bottom line? We have the bottom of the entering college freshman class .. and the bottom of the entering graduate school class out there teaching our children. Then they gripe about low salaries. They write comments on report cards like "Johnny are learning to read real good." and expect to be earning the big bucks.
Oh ... and don't forget that extended summer vacation

[CamB]

Maybe the low salary makes them reluctant to be accountable. Maybe the low salary self-selects those who have the lowest SATs.

Besides, lets see the justification for the appalingly low rate of pay for social workers (who deal with the crap you don't want to).

[fintstone]

Social Work..same low standards/requirements as teachers and attract the same type folks.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by CamB
Maybe the low salary makes them reluctant to be accountable.

Lets pay the employees at GM more so they'll make better cars!

[island911]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Lets pay the employees at GM more so they'll make better cars!

zZZZZing!

[CamB]

Originally posted by fintstone
Social Work..same low standards/requirements as teachers and attract the same type folks.

What standards would you prefer?

Do you actually believe it is a low skill job? Should it be a low skill job?

I can't really tell from your reply if you think that social work should be lowly valued, and hence attracts those of low standards, etc.

Or if you believe that it just happens that those who have low standards choose it, and therefore it is low paying? This is the "choices" you talk about, I think.

[island911]

Originally posted by CamB
. . .it just happens that those who have low standards choose it, and therefore it is low paying?. . .

Well all the school'n that goes on, here on this board, proves that point.

Some of us do teach for the sake of teaching.
In my case I teach (part time) at a local College where I got my start, and I felt the need to give-back a bit.

[fintstone]

The article tells me that employment is mostly about supply and demand. If almost anyone can qualify to enter a field (low entry standards) with the lowest preparation (low entry grades and scores)..and then almost anyone can easily complete the education requirements (low aptitude/education requirements), and there are no standards once working (teachers..tenure, etc)...Then the market is flooded with "qualified" people and there is no "culling" of inferior candidates/employees.. That effectively lowers the price "value" that their services demand. Subsequently any higer achievers who might have been attracted to the profession either decide otherwise before even starting school in that area (due to low wages/esteem) and most others achievers that actually attempt to work in the area are driven away by the liberal politics of the ignorant losers that remain or are rejected by the tenure system because they do not "fit in.".

[Tim Walsh]

My question is.. why does the article emphasize education as a way to increase salary, then go on to bash those that give that to you?

and my comment on the teachers salary, is that it is one of the few areas that you aren't so much accountable for your results, because their sucess or failure has many many more factors than just the quality of your teaching. I personally don't know HOW you can quantify the quality of teaching, sucess of the students on standardized tests does not count.


Note: I am not a teacher, though I do working a teaching institution, so I do see the highs and lows

[AFJuvat]

CIS Degreed Network engineer $ = Porsche Mechanic $

So I fix cars and hung the degree in my bathroom.


AFJuvat

[IROC]

One thing to consider relative to teacher's salaries, though, is that they are typically contracted to only work something like 196 days per year or something like that. If you take teacher's salaries and convert that into an equivalent hourly rate for a person working 260 days per year (like most of the rest of us) the numbers don't look as bad.

I'm not downplaying the role of teachers or their salaries, but I think it is important to realize that even if they work an *average* of 10 hours a day, they're not putting in near as many hours per year as the rest of us.

Mike

[lendaddy]

If you add up the benefits, pension, etc.. it's not a bad gig. I know several teachers and most are pretty happy with their decision.

[jyl]

In the bigger picture, the way to earn more income is to go on to graduate school. On average, those with graduate degrees earn considerably more than those with undergraduate degrees. And, of course, many of those higher-income persons have graduate degrees in law or business, and many of those got there via the much-maligned liberal arts undergraduate degree.

Clearly, though, if a college kid is planning to never go to graduate school, then the engineering and business fields are going to pay more. In that respect, the article is correct and he cites the evidence for it.

What I don't see any evidence cited for, though, is that lower-income professions have lower accountability or that teachers have lower SAT and GRE scores. I don't have an opinion on whether these claims are correct or not, but I am kind of suspicious that Boortz doesn't show any data for his assertions. Especially the "lower SAT/GRE" claims - there should be hard evidence for that.

It is a common rhetorical trick to start by presenting an argument that your audience will agree with, with lots of evidence to bolster your credibility, and then slide into your real argument, with a lot of hand-waving so that your audience won't notice that the evidence suddenly stopped.

Do you think Boortz knows this trick?

[gaijindabe]

Originally posted by fintstone
THE MONETARY WORTH OF YOUR COLLEGE DEGREE
Neal Boortz
Some of my listeners just can't stand it when I get into my "choices have consequences" mode. So many people just don't want to believe that they are right where they are, economically, socially and in terms of their health, principally because of the cumulative effect of the choices that they have made in their lives.
Some of the most important choices you will make involve education. In the early years it's whether or not you're even going to go to school, and if you do go whether or not you're going to actually apply yourself. Later on you will have to decide if you are going to continue to college ... and what your major will be. CNN has published a survey showing starting salaries for college graduates with various four-year degrees.

I would think this is obvious. What does go unmentioned is that you only go around once. I would not trade my major and college experience for all the tea in China. And would rather scrubb toilets than get an accounting degree. (Not that there is anything wrong with an accounting degree.)

Worried about your personal economics? Open a junkyard. Seeking social status? You'll get further by marrying the right girl.. Health?? Watch that stress in the high paying professional world..

Do what you love and love what you do - that may get you a rusty 924 or a stable full of cup cars - but you will live a happier life and go to your maker with less excuses..

[Wrecked944]

Originally posted by fintstone
You will notice that you don't see History, English, Social Work or other such disciplines on that list. If you make the choice to go after those majors, you are making a decision to limit your income potential pretty much throughout your life.

History Major here in his late 30's with a six figure income and two Porsches in the driveway.

Read "Rich Dad Poor Dad" and "The Millionaire Next Door"...anybody who is expecting to get "rich" from a job is better off playing the lottery IMO. Wealth comes from frugality and smart investing...or, to quote RDPD...

"A job is just a temporary solution to a permanent problem."

I believe most successful people will become wealthy regardless of the college degree choice and visa versa. If you are expecting your degree to make you wealthy, then you've already made a critically bad "choice".

[MFAFF]

Do you really measure success by financial reward?

Are successful ( as in earning a lot of money) because you have a qualification or becuase you are talented?

How do those well paid sportsmen who are real role models for vast numbers of people fit into the picture.

AS ever its easy to bash those who make a choice which does not fit the presenter's persepctive.

In my little world there is a very apt saying...

'Those who can, do.
Those who cannot, teach and those who can do neither criticise.....'

Seems like our Mr Boortz fits into the later class...

[nostatic]

Originally posted by fintstone
Social Work..same low standards/requirements as teachers and attract the same type folks.

you mean losers?

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by nostatic
you mean losers?

Was there a race?

[nostatic]

evidently so...

oh wait...now you're playing the race card. Nice job

[island911]

LOL


Teaching does attract losers.

So does accounting, realestate, medicine, investment banking, baseball, politics ....

The hopeful part is, smart people learn regardless of bad teaching. The not so smart students gain a piece of paper, which doesnt reflect that theyjust squeaked by . . . lets them get a cushing govt job some where. .. . or they're your doctor.

it all works out.