When was the last time the “right” was right?

[rcecale]

Bob, as you can plainly see, there was NO spin whatsoever in my reply to tw's question. He asked, I answered. Simple as that. A dem/liberal was in the whitehouse when all three of the wars I cited were entered by the US.

True the Japanese hit us first at Pearl Harbor. But then again, there was a group of 19 terrorists, representing a much larger organization of terrorists that "Pearl Harbored" us just a few years ago.

In the most recent attack, the organization was not representative of a single soveriegn nation, but we've all already been through all of this. Perhaps "terrorism" is in fact the "red menace" of the 21st century. Do we sit back and let it spread? Personally, I would rather we didn't.

Randy

[Moneyguy1]

Randy:

Didn't say we should. But, on the other hand, if these wars of the past were somehow or other begun by democrat administrations for, at the time what were considered to be "noble reasons", one must still face the fact, rightly or wrongly, that in all three cases the US (and others) were invited in by the country that perceived itself as under attack. Fair or not, this ain't the case in Iraq, no matter how the data are spun. Had we really wanted to go after the country where most of the folks from 9/11 came from, we should have started with Saudi Arabia.

No argument aboiut the good or bad being accomplished. There are two asides to every coin. Read my other posts. I am not anti Bush; I am anti some policies, bith domestic and foreign. But, because I do not fall lockstep, I have been considered as somehow unpatriotic and worse. That is wrong headed and unproductive. There should be room for dissent in any civilization otherwise you have a totalitarian state.

"There is a vast difference between disagreeing and being disagreeable"

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by CRH911S


I don't know that Iraq ever was the training ground for anything. But one thing is certain now. Iraq is certainly the killing field and the so-called insurgents are recieving outstanding on-the-job training at the expense of the US military and fully funded with US tax dollars.

Now, if we can only convince the conservatives that Saddam didn't have WMD.

Well, more proof on how ignorant the liberals are. So, what happened to all the weapons what were
UNACCOUNTED for after the first Gulf War, did they just fade away?? Saddam sure did play some game, and after 9/11, we aren't going to take chances. Ask the passengers on the South Korean airliner that was bombed years ago, how a bomb was placed on board in Iraq?? And on terrorist, what about these;

According to a report last year by the Hudson Institute, the short list of terrorists laying low in Iraq would include:
• Abu Nidal. Before Osama bin Laden arrived on the scene, Nidal was the world's most notorious terrorist. His terror gang is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans. He also threatened to kill Lt. Col. Oliver North.

Abu Nidal moved to Baghdad in 1999, where he was found shot to death in Aug 2002. Rumors swirled at the time that Nidal was rubbed out by Iraqi intelligence because he knew too much about Saddam's terrorist activities.

• Abu Abbas. Abbas masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, where wheelchair-bound American Leon Klinghoffer was pushed over the side to his death. U.S. troops captured Abbas in Baghdad on April 14, 2003. He died in U.S. custody last year.

• Abdul Rahman Yasin. Yasin was Ramzi Yousef's partner in the 1993 World Trade Center bomb plot, aiding the al Qaeda explosives mastermind in prepariing the bomb that killed six New Yorkers and wounded 1,000.

In 1996, an ABC News reporter spotted Yasin outside his government owned house in Baghdad. The key WTC 1993 co-conspirator remains at large.

• Khala Khadar al-Salahat. Al-Salahat, a top Palestinian deputy to Abu Nidal, reportedly furnished Libyan agents with the Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. The attack killed all 259 passengers, including 189 Americans. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad April 2003 when he was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.

• Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Zarqawi was training terrorists in Afghanistan for an attack on the U.S. embassy in Jordan when the U.S. defeated the Taliban, forcing him to flee. He relocated to Iraq, where he set up terrorist cells in the Northern part of the country.

In an indication that he enjoyed the status of guest of the state, Zarqawi was reportedly treated for a leg wound at one of Saddam's exclusive private hospitals.

After years of media reports denying that Zarqawi had ties to al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden himself dubbed Zarqawi his chief of operations in Iraq last year.

[techweenie]

Pretty much nonsense.

Bush1 did a good job of destroying WMD manufacturing capability. The notion that Saddam had a lot of WMD was part of the propaganda wave to get upport for the invasion in the first place. He didn't have it. If he had, he would have used it.

The notion that 5 or 6 terrorists are in a country of 26 million is the thinnest in a long line of thin of rationalizations for attacking it. Not to mention most of the anecdotes are just plain wrong.

Abu Nidal was a bad guy in the 80s, but no act were ascribed to his organization since 1986, excepting the assassination of two minor middle eastern officials.

Abu Abbas -- another bad guy who hadn't done anything since "masterminding" a cruise ship hijacking in 1985.

Abdul Rahman Yasin. American citizen. Not "al Quaeda." Just another anti-semite whose #1 target was Jewish neighborhoods. Fled to Iraq after 1993 WTC bombing, where they threw him in prison.

It seems that no conservative ever manages to retain the fact that "al Qaeda" is a name invented by the CIA in 2001, and didn't exist before, and doesn't really "exist" as a membership organization now.

Al-Salahat is a suspect in the 1988 Pan Am bombing.

Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Now ther's a mystery. not an OBL ally, but a rival, and as Newsweek said: "As it turns out, the report of medical treatment wasn't even credible to begin with. According to U.S. intelligence, Zarqawi had a leg amputated in Baghdad. Except that most sources now believe Zarqawi is equipped with two working legs. As Newsweek colorfully put in in early 2004, "The stark fact is that we don’t even know for sure how many legs Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi has, let alone whether the Jordanian terrorist, purportedly tied to al Qaeda, is really behind the latest outrages in Iraq."

So even if all one terrorist and five former terrorists were hanging out there, they don't add up to a reason to sacrifice thousands of U.S. lives.

[Racerbvd]

[/B][/QUOTE] So even if all one terrorist and five former terrorists were hanging out there, they don't add up to a reason to sacrifice thousands of U.S. lives. [/B][/QUOTE]

Do you even know anyone who serves this country and has been there??? Most would disagree with you. It only takes one terrorist with a NK or Russian supplied dirty bomb to take out one US city, I just hope it is on the West Coast when it happens, but since that is where most of their support is from, I don't think that will happen, NYC is where it will happen, when it happens again. Of course, you don't think that will happen, just like people don't get away with smuggling Coke into the states and other stuff out.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by Racerbvd

It only takes one terrorist with a NK or Russian supplied dirty bomb to take out one US city, [/B][/QUOTE]

Byron, that's just plain silly. with 3%* of cargo entering our ports being screened, you just need to ship it to Miami to take out the city. No terrorist needed.

Thanks to GWB taking his eyes off the real threats, getting your hands on a dirty bomb from NK or Iran is easier than ever. I think you can even save and get the family pack.

* Source: Ex-Coast Guard Commander now consulting with the Admin on port security here in Boston.

[techweenie]

That's the silliest thing I ever heard. If one terrorist is rationalization enough for invading any country, we'd have to invade, oh, I don't know... about 130 countries...

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Shaun 84 Targa
It only takes one terrorist with a NK or Russian supplied dirty bomb to take out one US city,

Byron, that's just plain silly. with 3%* of cargo entering our ports being screened, you just need to ship it to Miami to take out the city. No terrorist needed.

Thanks to GWB taking his eyes off the real threats, getting your hands on a dirty bomb from NK or Iran is easier than ever. I think you can even save and get the family pack.

* Source: Ex-Coast Guard Commander now consulting with the Admin on port security here in Boston. [/B][/QUOTE]

Who says they will use a port, BTW, I agree with you about Miami, it hasn't been an American city since the 80s. Funny, I also get a lot of my info from a former (not ex like the guy in Boston) Coast Guard Commander and currently a rock musician. China still has an eye on NY, and Iran has backed down since GWB showed that America still has balls, even with all the liberals. Still, do any one you know anyone who currently and proudly serves this county???

[CRH911S]

Still, do any one you know anyone who currently and proudly serves this county???

Byron, what's the point?

My son voluntarily deployed six months after the towers and his best friend just got out of the Navy and reenlisted in the AK ANG. I'm a veteran, and socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I happen to have many friends that are Vietnam veterans, Panama and Grenada veterans, and Desert Storm veterans. While Americans fully support our men and women in uniform no matter were they serve, the same can not be said for the president.

[RoninLB]

if the religious belief that no one should ever be killed under any circumstances.. for any reason what so ever. And that person doesn't know about that "truth" and so is trying to fake not becoming a formal rep for that "truth". Then that person is thus, not able to discuss strategic policy with a clear head.

[Moneyguy1]

Byron: Just curious:

Have you served your country? And, if not, would you if called upon like many of us here have done? I agree with CRH911S.

Seems as if the most warlike are those who never served. Of course, I could be wrong....

Ronin..I think I get your point, but I am not sure.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Seems as if the most warlike are those who never served. Of course, I could be wrong....

That's my impression, as well, remember the late, unlamented Mulholland?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by RoninLB
if the religious belief that no one should ever be killed under any circumstances.. for any reason what so ever. And that person doesn't know about that "truth" and so is trying to fake not becoming a formal rep for that "truth". Then that person is thus, not able to discuss strategic policy with a clear head.

Are there any Western religions that don't believe in killing? Jesus Christ, they are all based on killing. FYI, in IL, they found a 50% mistake level in death penalty cases.

(AP)--In a rare split with religious broadcaster Pat Robertson, the Rev. Jerry Falwell said he cannot support his fellow conservative's call for a moratorium on the death penalty.

In fact, Falwell said, he believes the appeals process for prisoners should be speeded up.

``Pat and I do not disagree on many things, but on this one we do,'' Falwell said in Tuesday's Richmond Times-Dispatch.

``While courts do make mistakes, I do not believe the mistake level is at the point where we need to rethink our whole system, and I personally believe that we need to reduce the time between conviction and execution.''

Robertson, speaking Friday at the College of William and Mary, said that while he believes the death penalty is morally justified, he sees it being administered in a way that discriminates against blacks and the poor and doesn't provide enough opportunities for mercy.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Byron: Just curious:

Have you served your country? And, if not, would you if called upon like many of us here have done? I agree with CRH911S.

Seems as if the most warlike are those who never served. Of course, I could be wrong....

Ronin..I think I get your point, but I am not sure.

As someone who "currently" is serving, I think it is safe to say that most military folks support our actions very strongly. Of course, most of us get a lot more information/intel and don't have to rely on Move On, Al Jazeera and other wacko internet sites for it.

[Moneyguy1]

fint: I served too, 6 years in the Coast Guard. I do not think this, in any way is either relevant to these discussions or makes me an expert in interdiction or "terrorism".

Strange as it may seem, I have never keyed on MoveOn or any of the left or right wing spin sites. Both are equally biased and both are equally wrong.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by fintstone
As someone who "currently" is serving, I think it is safe to say that most military folks support our actions very strongly. Of course, most of us get a lot more information/intel and don't have to rely on Move On, Al Jazeera and other wacko internet sites for it.

Fint, I doubt your propaganda sources are superior.

You may be the most consistent poster of wrong information on Pelican.

You may be surprised that most of the folks you debate here not only dont' depend on "Move On, Al Jazeera and other wacko internet sites", but don't even visit them.

[Moneyguy1]

Kinda reminds me of Colonel Flagg on "M.A.S.H."

[fintstone]

Once again I am shocked that the average joe accountant or used car salesman thinks he has a better idea about what is happening in the military/Iraq than the guys who do it for a living. Maybe you should apply for a job with the Dept of Defense. What you really mean is that my opinons do not match your opinions...and as such...are wrong. I have 26 years of recent active duty, am an officer in the reserve and currently work for DoD...so clearly guys who spent a couple of years in the military 30 years ago would know more about the current situation than I would..LOL. I see the intel...I saw our actual "planning documents" for our Iraq campaign. (no, it did not resemble anything you guys post on the internet). I have a major who works for me who was a "weapons inspector." I work daily developing tactics, techniques and procedures with military folks who have spent most of the last couple of years on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently you guys feel you are somehow better informed because you can find some website with various conspiracy theories, etc...written by someone who has never left LA, or San Francisco..or are terrorists themselves..LOL At best, they are "in country" filing reports from the Palestine Hotel. Face it, most of the people that really know the score do not have anti-war websites....

[Moneyguy1]

Ya know, fint..there was a senator on tv not too long ago with the same mindset:

"I know more than you but I can't tell you".

The most feared words in the English language: "Trust me. I know what I'm doing".

Please do not denigrate those who served 30 or more years ago and came home to ridicule and rotten eggs. There is a BIG difference between planning safely behind the lines and actually observing first hand what is going on. Heck, as far as any war goes, even Generals cannot agree on proper action (even now). And, as a member of the armed forces, you do (or did) take your orders from superiors that may or may not have known what was going on. The "good old biy's club rules even in the military. You say you have information that does not match what others post. That may be true, but like I have said so many times, there is another unprovable. We are asked to "take your word" that your cites are superior.

If what you say is true, I respect the service you have performed. But even that is an unprovable.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Kinda reminds me of Colonel Flagg on "M.A.S.H."

Sorry, but I don't know who Col Flagg is/was.....but, of course, I did not learn about the military by watching MASH (or even the Discovery or History channel). By the way, MASH was fictional and a parody...I thought everyone knew.