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A more effective strategy is to tax SUV's directly if you want to get rid of them in particular. A good start would be repeal of the tax credit given to businesses for these vehicles, because many people have small businesses (essentially proprietor only) that own SUV's for tax benefits. More importantly, although people want less dino burning cars etc, let's face it, there are certain systems where dino fuel just can't be replaced easily/safely. Saltwater and mid-air (jet fuel) come to mind. How many of you guys want to be in the air with that much hydrogen during the first 10years of flight? Salt water corrodes everything & I'd guess the fuel cells as well. Certainly wouldn't want to depend on big-a$$ batteries to fly at 35K & 540mph.
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Peter '79 930, Odyssey kid carrier, Prius sacrificial lamb Missing ![]() nil carborundum illegitimi |
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If refineries buy oil at $70 per barrel and it sells for $3 a gallon at the pump, it makes no sense. If the price of crude levels off at $70, will prices at the pump level off at $3.75/gallon or so? / J edit: Just realized my mistake!
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'86 coupe Last edited by kjb; 09-02-2005 at 01:09 PM.. |
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Art,
You pay or you pay. What do you suppose our political / military presence in the MidEast 1970 until 20XX costs?
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Jamie79SC |
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Jamie, you are far to smart to have missed the elegance and beauty of this current system. Subsidizing the oil companies with taxpayers' money improves their bottom line, and keeps American auto maufacturers busy selling expensive, large vehicles. It's not about free markets. It's about capitalism. Capitalism obviously works, as long as citizens are not paying attention.
Same with safety. Traffic congention (and transporation infrastructure challenges like we have here in W WA), highway deaths and injuries, insurance rates, all these things would fall if we required motorists to be skilled and educated as a condition of holding a motor vehicle operator's license. Instead, anybody that can read (at least a little) and is 17 years old with about $20 can get a drivers' license. But you see, if we tightened up the requirements, a bunch of bad things would happen. Deaths and injuries would fall, congestion would fall, costs would fall, gas cionsumption would fall, etc. But SUV sales would also fall and effective public transportation systems would be developed. See what you're suggesting? Don't be silly.
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Man of Carbon Fiber (stronger than steel) Mocha 1978 911SC. "Coco" |
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Super,
Will we have a chance to talk this over tomorrow between sessions of skill development in Bremerton?
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Jamie79SC |
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I agree that gas is too cheap and I'm a Texan that drives a full size pickup! I think the taxes for gas should be increased 10 cents a year over the next 10 years. I think semi truck drivers, farmers, city services, airlines etc. should not have to pay the full amount of this tax. Why is it the rest of the developed world cares about oil consumption and apparently we don't?
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2014 Cayman S (track rat w/GT4 suspension) 1979 930 (475 rwhp at 0.95 bar) |
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That is the most amazing, "ipsofacto" paragraph I have ever read. I salute you, Sup.
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Further, the whole notion that the extra tax would be used in some insightful/useful way is... well wishful. What happens with more tax money to spend? More pork barrel politics. Go back to the old adage; expenses always rise to meet income. As for alternate energy use, remember the GM saga with the electric car? If this happened via gubmint I couldn't imagine the outcry about those wasted dollars. I guess I don't see the current tie-in between an attempt to raise taxes (because gas is too cheap) and the military in the ME. Haven't we been in Korea, Philipines, Germany, England etc forever, spending tons of $?
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Peter '79 930, Odyssey kid carrier, Prius sacrificial lamb Missing ![]() nil carborundum illegitimi |
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Peter,
I think I was a little obtuse in my opening statement and didn’t make my point clearly. It appears that people are willing to pay more than they do for gas. Because they are willing to pay more for gas, like it or not eventually they will. Rather paying more to the oil companies, and foreign owners of oil, instead confiscate that extra money in the form of taxes. I’m not suggesting that we tax to reduce consumption. I’m suggesting that you could add a tax to fuel just to the point of reducing consumption. Then invest that money to eventually reduce the economic demand for oil. You are quite right; if the government ever did levy that tax they’d spend it on the same BS they spend all the rest of our money on. (That’s why I said earlier on this is just a thought exercise.) I hope / wish that Island is right about energy companies investing this windfall on future energy, I’m just not sure it will really happen in our best interest. They’ll make every dollar they can on petroleum and then make every dollar they can on the next technologies that they own. I know I sound like a socialist here, but is it possible that some things are not best left to the free market? (I really don’t know, but I’d like to discuss the possibility.) We were in Germany and England as the aftermath of WWII and stayed there and went to Korea for the Cold War. I think we’re there now largely out of habit and want out.
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--OH MAN!! I wish I was better with computers (or actually had one that has wireless). Mike, there's an awesome joke right there fella. I was thinking of switching all of the lower sections to things like women, cars and Pelican and in putting Lubemaster on top instead of lubricants in a funny and semi-tasteful way. But instead, I SUCK! Have a great weekend!
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We can share the women, we can share the wine - Jack Straw. 1970 911t w/3.0 1971 914 w/2.0 1987 300E |
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Sadly, my transmission is in pieces on John's bench. Enjoy scaring the cones. I'm told there are AX sessions there each of the weekend's three days.
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Man of Carbon Fiber (stronger than steel) Mocha 1978 911SC. "Coco" |
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Peter '79 930, Odyssey kid carrier, Prius sacrificial lamb Missing ![]() nil carborundum illegitimi |
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Peter,
It's a question of price elasticity. I’ll pick some numbers out of thin air for the purpose of illustration. Maybe my buying behavior does not change much until gas gets to $4.75 per gallon. My neighbor’s might change at $4.25. You might start buying less gas once it gets to $5.00 Averaged out, we could say that consumption is roughly inelastic until prices approach $4.66 per gallon. This is a gross simplification of actual pricing elasticity, but will serve for our example. If the government put an additional $1.66 per gallon tax on our now $3.00 per gallon gas, we wouldn’t buy much less of the stuff. In fact, they could probably put a $2.00 tax and in an effort to increase consumption and maximize gross profit, the oil companies would lower the price towards a total price (tax included) that approaches $4.66. Again, I’m pulling these numbers out of thin air; the demand/supply curve and profit maximization calculations are actually much more complicated, but you get the idea. Increasing taxes wouldn’t necessarily reduce consumption by all that much. As for the cost of our presence in the MidEast, I was referring to the comments about everything being more expensive if energy is more expensive. I’m saying that keeping energy 'cheap' is mighty expensive too...
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Jamie79SC |
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So you are saying;
We really should do something to slow the use of energy. . . so that we will have more of it. ![]()
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Everyone you meet knows something you don't. - - - and a whole bunch of crap that is wrong. Disclaimer: the above was 2˘ worth. More information is available as my professional opinion, which is provided for an exorbitant fee. ![]() |
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Information Junky
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What you are proposing is like wanting higher prices at tarbucks, so that the lines (waits) are shorter.
Further raising, the already high fuel prices, w/ a massive tax-hike, will make driving a luxury only for those with money. To paraphrase a common Lib line; your scheme disproportionately burdens the poor. As was said earlier, if you want to encourage more efficient vehicles, then simply push those standards. Oil is the grease that keeps this economy moving. Throwing in a huge tax-addative would be a huge mistake.
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Everyone you meet knows something you don't. - - - and a whole bunch of crap that is wrong. Disclaimer: the above was 2˘ worth. More information is available as my professional opinion, which is provided for an exorbitant fee. ![]() |
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the scheme would advantage the poor bigstyle if the money is used to create public transport if i understand correctly , most big cities in the US do not have a subway or metro system? LA ? Miami? Texas? etc? which ones do have such a system? NY ? San Francisco? Chicago? how about New Orleans?? why didn't those 100 000 "poorer" people not take a train? why didn't the gouvernement make sure there were trains to evacuate?? i live in a country that's below the waterline... but from the looks of it , if there was an evacuation , public transport would be the key... i bet they have plans to do just that, they would not leave people behind simply because they can't afford a plane ticket, or because they have no car ... how good is the train system in the US? in Europe , we can get from any major city too any major city by train, in most cases, High speed train, and we're still getting new tracks every year provincial cities in most western european countries have trainstations... i'm talking cities with 20- 30 000 inhabitants... tha'ts like a suburb for you guys . but we have commuter trains there most if not all major western european cities have either a Tube, metro or city busses, hell , even small villages with say 1500 inhabitants have a bus service that goes up and down to the closest town several times a day, even early in the morning , so school kids and commuters can get to the station in time to get to work 150 km's away if need be. i'll admit , it sucks bigtime to commute by public transport, it's still a bit slower , but it's cheap, there are discounts for the unemployed, for the elderly , for kids, companies refund tickets to commutors , and even the poor can get anywhere they want for a reasonable price... and it's still getting better all the time. some cities actually have free bus systems ... the way i see it , not taxing the fuel and having cars as the only mode of transportation in certain areas is more of a disadvantage for the poor. they can't even get to certain places if they can't afford a car. there just isn't an alternative. or at least nothing with a practical time table. and if i'm not mistaken , there is less really bad poverty in Western Europe than there is in the USA... there's less homeless , our bottom end, is less deep... we do not have as much poverty that is enherited from generation to generation, and there's more chances to actually break out of that cycle.. dispite having had fuel taxed for a long time now, and cigarrettes, and booze, and income and 20% on sales... encouraging standards for fuel economy? that's like begging to a 12 year old , please watch less tv, and do more school work.. it won't work except for the few. and it still wouldn't adress the existing cars out there.
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Stijn Vandamme EX911STARGA73EX92477EX94484EX944S8890MPHPINBALLMACHINEAKAEX987C2007 BIMDIESELBMW116D2019 Last edited by svandamme; 09-02-2005 at 11:04 PM.. |
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Tolerance is key character trait we should all practice.
People always like the idea of limiting other's rights and choices because they believe they'll be on the winning side, and only someone else's rights will be trampled. But assuming things will go in your favor is risky. Let's look at this driving thread through that lens... DRIVERS: Only those that can afford the privilege, and have the safest driving record should be able to drive. So let's limit driving to women age 30 to 55. After all, they get in the fewest accidents. Now let's limit it to women with a net worth of $500,000, and a yearly income of $100,000 or more. Still like the idea? CARS: Better than banning SUVs is banning all cars over five years old. Let's compare that old 911 to an SUV. Per mile, the 911 pollute oodles more than a new SUV. The mileage of the 911 is worse than some SUVs. The 911 doesn’t really hold much either. An SUV will hold the groceries, and an entire family going on a week long vacation. So lets ban all sports cars, and cars over five years in age. THE POINT: You drive what you want, and I'll drive what I want. You do your best not to run into me, and I'll do the same.
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Dixie Bradenton, FL 2013 Camaro ZL1 |
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Public transport in the US is largely a sad joke. Even places that have systems are generally woefully inadequate. One of the impressions I routinely take away from visits to Europe is the public transport. Rome has subways that go all the way to the beach. There are trains that run every half hour from Naples all the way to Sorrento -- that's like a 3 hour drive, or a 1 hour train ride. You can hop a metro-train from Frankfurt all the way out to the surrounding communities, and the bus schedules are all coordinated with the subway schedule, so it's more efficient. It's just not the same over here.
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'86 911 (RIP March '05) '17 Subaru CrossTrek '99 911 (Adopt an unloved 996 from your local shelter today!) |
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![]() Capt. Carrera really nails the broader issue here. IMO. ![]()
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Everyone you meet knows something you don't. - - - and a whole bunch of crap that is wrong. Disclaimer: the above was 2˘ worth. More information is available as my professional opinion, which is provided for an exorbitant fee. ![]() |
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Gon fix it with me hammer
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not everybody can find work within walking distance of their home and not everybody can afford a car when they are unemployed over here, i could basically have no car and still take on any job in the country sure it would be a pita commute and trains are definately a drag compared to having my own personal transportation but it is definately possible, and many people do it, it's not a "poor people" thing, it is however the most "social" form of transportation... a car per definition is not and never will be and for the record, busses aren't the most important part of public transportation trains, metro's and trams are, they run on tracks, and if done well are very safe, efficient and punctual they also run on electricity , so they do not rely on combustion fuels or any other type of fuel they need to carry themself which mean you don't waste energy , to carry the energy
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Stijn Vandamme EX911STARGA73EX92477EX94484EX944S8890MPHPINBALLMACHINEAKAEX987C2007 BIMDIESELBMW116D2019 |
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