Gas is too cheap

[artplumber]

Originally posted by svandamme
poorest people drive the most ??!??!
you smoking something?
the poorest people don't drive cars
they live in cardboard boxes
and are unemployed

Occasionally I have been known to have a Macanudo..., but to answer your question, the working poor do drive the most. Homeless people are a vastly smaller number than those who are "lower class" and do work.

Public transport has always been difficult in the US because we have (or had) space. That's what we like. We are very individualistic and will not go somewhere on someone else's schedule. It's part of the american psyche. Even in states which have very liberal political records, it is difficult to find funding & votes for a public trans system. About the only really successful systems are NY and SF, (and maybe Chicago - don't know too much about there). Look at Washington state: the geography sucks for multiple freeways in the urbanized areas around the Puget Sound, they usually vote Dem, and they have been trying for 3 decades to get a commuter train system into Seattle. LA with hundreds of miles of Freeway in gridlock from 5 am to 10pm finally is getting some kind of commuter train system, but it's pretty limited and won't run after like 9pm (WTF?).

Furthermore, here transportation is a religion, because your car says a great deal about who you are. (It's why I got the raw turbo)

[David]

Originally posted by tabs
Just like LOjac is and GPS...

So if you have an old car without these big brother instituted devices, you wouldn't pay the tax?

[svandamme]

Originally posted by artplumber
Occasionally I have been known to have a Macanudo..., but to answer your question, the working poor do drive the most. Homeless people are a vastly smaller number than those who are "lower class" and do work.

Public transport has always been difficult in the US because we have (or had) space. That's what we like. We are very individualistic and will not go somewhere on someone else's schedule. It's part of the american psyche. Even in states which have very liberal political records, it is difficult to find funding & votes for a public trans system. About the only really successful systems are NY and SF, (and maybe Chicago - don't know too much about there). Look at Washington state: the geography sucks for multiple freeways in the urbanized areas around the Puget Sound, they usually vote Dem, and they have been trying for 3 decades to get a commuter train system into Seattle. LA with hundreds of miles of Freeway in gridlock from 5 am to 10pm finally is getting some kind of commuter train system, but it's pretty limited and won't run after like 9pm (WTF?).

Furthermore, here transportation is a religion, because your car says a great deal about who you are. (It's why I got the raw turbo)

i understand the space and individualisme, the same individualisme is present here as well, the only difference is the lower density, and the fact that our cities have been around for much much longer, so as soon as technology got developped, our transportation was booming... eg trains and subway came with steam, trams came with electricity... we had public transport before we had cars

currently , if you're poor here, you can't afford a car, especially since cost of purchase, ownership and fuel is a lot higher here in Europe. it's considered a luxury , not a necessity

with the rising fuel costs, the governements here are making a excellent deals on the tax incomes. but as prices go up , the countries are changing the tax percentages. so the impact is lessened ( not much by , but if the prices go up more , the tax percentage will go down even more )

imagine what happens if we suddenly stop taxing fuel all together
we'de be very competitive , since we'de be getting our fuel at a (for us relatively) normal price, while you guys would be paying till it hurts (compared to before)...

[island911]

Originally posted by svandamme
. . . and the fact that our cities have been around for much much longer, ...

Yeah, they've been on the map a whole lot longer, but that whole WW2 thing . . . kind of a clean slate. Right? . . .places like Rotterdam?

[svandamme]

eh , i'm talking historically...
London, Paris , they've been around for longer than the US was colonized... and there's plenty of other cities that have been around for just as long... Brussels,Munchen, Vienna, Rome, probably more cities like that than there are states in the US of A. And most if not all of these towns have been connected by Train and tram for as long as there has been electricity and steam...

and yes for Rotterdam, clean slate, and they did make use of the opportunity to "redesign" the whole thing, R'dam has excellent public transportation.. many of the people where i work(we're mostly expacts, me included) , don't even have a car.maybe New Orleans could be a good candidate for a similar "redesign" ? if it has to be rebuilt , might as well do it right and "while the engine and tranny is out " upgrade a few things...

[artplumber]

Originally posted by svandamme
...i understand the space and individualisme, the same individualisme is present here as well, the only difference is the lower density...

I've lived in Europe & the US and there is a big difference. It's part of the whole John Wayne thing for you Europeans or the "ugly american". Nobody wants to line up here like they "queue" in the UK etc for transportation. They'd rather be in a car queue on the freeway listening to their own music, with their own smells/temperature, and good elbow-room. A good family friend who is from the Netherlands and rountinely comes to visit recognizes this as well.

The railroad (between cities) flourished here only until the advent of good roads + FoMoCo. Then it died, and can't be revived despite billions in subsidies. Public trans is only successful where the costs/hassles of a car have been huge - ie NY SF.

[Dixie]

I've lived in Europe & the US and there is a big difference.

I grew up in Spain, and America. I've been to most of Europe. There is a big difference.

Most Americans see someone in a Limo and think, "Man, that can be me if I come up with a good product, or work hard, or invest wisely."

Most Europeans see someone in a Limo and think, "The government should tax that person more, so I can have a limo, two months vacation, and a 32 hour work-week."

[svandamme]

Originally posted by Capt. Carrera
I've lived in Europe & the US and there is a big difference.

Most Americans see someone in a Limo and think, "Man, that can be me if I come up with a good product, or work hard, or invest wisely."

Most Europeans see someone in a Limo and think, "The government should tax that person more, so I can have a limo, two months vacation, and a 32 hour work-week." [/QUOTE]

depends on how you define a Limo

the american stretch limo's over here are rare
you'll only see em for people using them for a special occasion
marriage, or film premieres

the european alternative is a big ass Merc or Bmw ( still small compared to american big cars )

an american stretch limo get's the " look at that posing poof, and damn those things are ugly " , ditto for blacked out hummers

big bimmers and merc get comments if they're driven by aholes, and pushing them through traffic, either with or without police escort, in those cases it's "look at that elitist/royal/bigshot politician/CEO scum/Corps Diplomatic scum , why can't they just stand in a traffic jam like everyone else , there is no life or death danger"

any car has the potential to be driven by jerks, so any car can get comments based on road behaviour , but obvious big expensive cars are just asking for it if it's antisocial driving

i've yet to hear anyone comment " that one needs more taxes"
and definately not from just seeing a car if it's just participating normally in traffic...

[Wrecked944]

AAArgh! Will you nut brains please stop arguing and whining and get start talking about how we can make some serious dinero off this dino fuel opportunity????? I'll be making biodiesel in my basement in just a few short weeks. If any of you chemists out there can show me a relatively inexpensive and non-toxic additive or methiod that will make the stuff usable in winter, then I've got some venture capital in hand, baby. Let's get this party started! If we don't do it, then someone else surely will.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by JanusCole
AAArgh! Will you nut brains please stop arguing and whining and get start talking about how we can make some serious dinero off this dino fuel opportunity????? I'll be making biodiesel in my basement in just a few short weeks. If any of you chemists out there can show me a relatively inexpensive and non-toxic additive or methiod that will make the stuff usable in winter, then I've got some venture capital in hand, baby. Let's get this party started! If we don't do it, then someone else surely will.

Janus, I'd love to help, but I think the prices are still too low to make biodiesel a going concern.

[tabs]

Originally posted by 125shifter
So if you have an old car without these big brother instituted devices, you wouldn't pay the tax?

It's called RETROFITTING....

[svandamme]

Originally posted by tabs
It's called RETROFITTING....

that's called, over my dead body.

[Craig 930 RS]

High gas prices at least make everyone THINK about it.
Brings the entire energy/fuel/alternative/ etc etc to the forefront and FORCES you to think about the entire concept........nothing in particular, just the entire concept of energy....

Hop it goes back down, however. I get 12 mpg.....

[ianc]

I also am not sure that taxing fuel per se is the best alternative, although I think what the starter of this thread says about the amount people are WILLING to pay has some merit.

Some have proposed road taxes. I say, how about a weight tax? the Excursions, etc. weight 8500-10000 pounds! This idea has been in use for tractor trailers for awhile; why not extend it to passenger vehicles? Proceeds to be used solely for alternative energy development (as if...),

ianc

[svandamme]

well , road tax in Holland is done by weight
in Belgium it's done per engine displacement

but realistically , fuel tax also covers heavy cars... the heavier they are, the more they guzzle, there's no way around that.

taxing fuel is a bit late on in the game , but they could add a tax if/when the prices drop again, i'm sure in europe , they will undo the tax cuts imposed since the prices went up.

when they do that, and effectively invest in public transportation
then the US will rely less and less on oil for transportation and basics
that's something to aim for

Bush may say he want's to rely less on oil and outside sources for energy , but realistically , it's going to take a long time before cars run on alternative energy, a lot longer then it takes to change the energy source for electricity on the grid. So having the prices drop to 1990's level is not such a good plan ( for as much as such a thing would still be possible ) and at some point , US will have to bite the bullet , get over the car/oil addiction , and start building infrastructure so future generations have something more than a car junkyard and refinery's without oil...
keeping the prices up , would also prevent wasting it, encourage economical cars, and make the resource last longer than the current predictions...


the biggest risk i would worry about if i were you , would be making sure it's used for public transportation , and not to fix the budget deficit or to fund things like Iraq...

[rob justice]

"well , road tax in Holland is done by weight
in Belgium it's done per engine displacement"
In the Uk its a combination of engine displacement or emissions. No idea how to work it out - just wait for the bill to drop through the post then lose the plot for 5 minutes calling everyone in government a robbing b&%$£"d!!!!!!!!!
Its £170 ($290) for the Porsche, same for my Escort 1.8TD Estate (pile of crap) but £85 ($145) for the wifes 1.5TD Renault Clio - all for 12 months tax.

[MFAFF]

The real issue is to make the cars we drive more efficent... the only driver for that will be higher prices at the pumps...

The majority of new cars in Europe are far more economical then the equivalent cars in the Us... the only reason for that is the relatively loe price of fuel... there is no incentive for the Us car manufacturers to spend millions developing higher efficiency engines when it has no 'value' in the show room.

In Europe fuel economy is a high percentage selling point....

What you do to increase the cost per mile, either gas tax or mile tax is always a compromise... but the use of the raised revenue is more important.. if its seen as a general benefit to all then people will endorse it. if its more polotically driven pork barrle projects then not and it will fail..

Devil and the deep blue sea...for all of us.

[Craig 930 RS]

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

This doesn't ring truer than it does right now....

[David]

Originally posted by tabs
It's called RETROFITTING....

whatever

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by JanusCole
AAArgh! Will you nut brains please stop arguing and whining and get start talking about how we can make some serious dinero off this dino fuel opportunity????? I'll be making biodiesel in my basement in just a few short weeks. If any of you chemists out there can show me a relatively inexpensive and non-toxic additive or methiod that will make the stuff usable in winter, then I've got some venture capital in hand, baby. Let's get this party started! If we don't do it, then someone else surely will.

JanusCole - I think we have a little something that should help you out with the BioDeisel issue.

Biodiesel is an alternative diesel fuel produced from a renewable resource - soybean oil, corn oil, animal fats - essentially methlyl ester. Biodiesel contains no petroleum but it can be blended with petroleum to create a biodiesel blend. The typical blend is 20% bio and 80% diesel fuel – this is know as “B20” diesel fuel.

Several states have passed legislation that subsidize the use of this fuel to make it more affordable and to support farmers and renders alike. In 2004 approximately 35 million gallons of biodiesel were sold, a 40% increase from 2003. National legislation to support the use of biodiesel is pending.

Biodiesel provides the following benefits:

• Produced from a renewable domestic resource which reduces our reliance on imported fuel.
• Provides higher Cetane fuel.
• Has increased lubricity.

Biodiesel also has the following problems:

• Very poor low temperature characteristics.
• Very susceptible to degradation from water.
• Highly susceptible to bacteria degradation.
• Poor oxidation resistance.

We have come up with a product that improves the performance of diesel fuel and works just as well with biodiesel as with regular diesel and provides the following benefits:

• The high natural Cetane of biodiesel is increased even further. This will improve combustion efficiency, cut starting time, and reduce detonation wear.
• It contains a powerful detergency cleans pumps, injectors, and fuel lines and prevents white smoke. Also, disperses contaminants to prevent the formation of gum, varnish, lacquer, and carbon coke.
• The product's detergency will also reduce emissions (NOx, CO, particulates, and black smoke).
• It will provide improved fuel economy - up to 5%.
• The product contains demulsifiers separate out water from the biodiesel making it less susceptible to water degradation.
• The product also contains Pour Point Depressants improve biodiesel performance in cold climates by lowering the pour point of the fuel by up to 20°F.
• It also contains Oxidation Inhibitors will help stabilize the fuel during storage.
• Another product we have developed is a biocide that quickly and completely eliminates bacteria and fungus from fuel systems and storage tanks using biodiesel.

If you would like to get your hands on some, I can help you out - PM me and we can get a lil sump'n go'n!