You can pretty much track the migratory patterns of humans all over the world by mapping small, silent stable mutations in chromosomal DNA. You can even track ancestral movement within a small region. DNA is a biochemical fingerprint that not only identifies you, but the ancient tribe that got you started.

Moses- That's neat.

...and that's my point. Biologists (heck, probably also paleontologists, archeologists et al) can put the theory to use in their daily activities. It works. If a theory is valid, every time you run the same experiment, you should *expect* the same result. There's no evil atheist conspiracy going on here. It's simply utilization of a theory that works.

Mike

Is it "ELephants all the way down" . . .or was it "Giant Tortise all the way down." ? (punch line to a metaphysics/religion joke)

Thing is, both science and religion have some major limitations. Science looks at our perceived reality and trys to order it, sift it . ..all working towards one Unified therory of Everything.

Religion, OTOH, starts with one Unified therory of Everything, lables it "GOD" and works outward from there. (to give structure to our perceived reality)

BOTH have huge holes. Religion puts duct-tape patches on their holes with "God works in mysterious way" or some such. Where science says, don't look behind that curtian yet . .. we're working on it.

But, even for the scientist, the world is supported by a giant proverbial Elephant, which stands on a Giant proverbial Tortise . . .. and it's Tortises all the way down . . . . ;)

Mike- Never inferred there was an evil conspiracy. I did imply, using your logic by the way, that peoples expectations can lead to a particular result(s). People can see what they want, and ignore what they don't want.

Scientists ARE people.

Don't forget, my wife was a biomedical science major (with a 3.97 GPA - the B was my fault). You could say she's had some biology courses. Not saying she's an expert, but not ignorant either. I showed her this thread and she chuckled. She says all the biology books she's read & studied would disagree with the assumption that ID is impossible, as is inferred here.

She went on to try and explain something about science is theory, can not be proven, or something like that... :confused: I obviously did not have a 3.97!

- Skip

I like what Moses said (the PP Moses). Tracking humans leads them to the middle east. The use of DNA testing confirms that too. Tracking chromosons is a but harder. It seems that the female record keeps going but the male record bottlenecks a few thousand years ago. Something must have happened that the male oringins don't go back that far but females go back so much further. I wonder what happened?

I have no problem with evolution. It explanes a lot in the animal kingdom. It does not explain the origins of life nor humans. Many things can be tested and proven in a lab. I have no problem with that either. In a lab things are controlled. You can manipulate experiments the way you want. That does not mean that the same would happen outside teh controlled area.

Science merely asks questions then looks for answers.
Good science does not care what the answer is.

Are you a Catholic or a heretic?

holey example
 

When you throw a few photons (Light) at a thin slit, you'll get a nice diffraction pattern (as wave theory predicts)

-- throw a few photons (Light) at a wide slit, you'll get a nice shadow pattern (as particle theory predicts)

When you throw a few photons (Light) at TWO thin slits, you get a nice interference diffraction pattern (as wave theory predicts)

YET--When you throw a ONE photon (Light) at TWO thin slits, you STILL get a nice interference diffraction pattern again (as NIETHER wave theory NOR particle theory predicts)

Yet! 'Science' continues to use both wave and particle theory (for light) even though the evidence is not consistent.

. . . is that then bad science?

No problem. Time for a corollary! (That was easy!) ;)

:D

This Wittgenstein quote pretty much sums up this discussion for me:

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
(Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.)

/ Johan

>>What gets most Christians going is the prevailing use of Evolution Theory to discredit and "prove" that Christianity is wrong. Yes, even on this board of open minded free thinkers. I have absolutely no problem with evolution as a fact of life as you described it. What we see is that a LOT of people try to use this as some kind of mental springboard to say that since there is ongoing change (evolution) there can not be a Creator.

Exactly. This and the attempts to purge any trace of theistic ideas from public education is what really chaps my hide. Religion belongs bottled up in church you say, but how many high schoolers actually go to church these days to be exposed to these ideas? Theories and ideas of God and creation belong in public education for students to consider just as much as theories and ideas of evolution and atheism. If you deny them the former, you deny them an entire intellectual realm.

It's not as if creation is some far-out wacko theory held by a crazy minority, creationism dates back as far as recorded history exists. How arrogant to withold these ideas from schools because a vocal atheist community believes them to be untrue.

Some very thought provoking statements in this thread...thanks for the great discussion on both sides.

And this does happen and in my mind constitutes "bad science". Bad science has occured over the years (and will continue), but in most cases the scientific community is self-correcting (they love to find fault or error in someone else's work) and so eventually, the error is found and corrected. People have used this argument (bad science kinda thing) against evolutionary theory (Piltdown Man, etc) but the truth always bubbles to the surface and the theory of evolution has been heavily scrutinized for "bad science", I assure you.

I would submit that people's expectations don't lead to particular results. People's "expectations" have no bearing on the results at all. Every time an experiment is performed, there is an expectation as to what the result will be (that's usually why you're running the experiment anyway - to validate an assumption). If you warmed up your car and then stuck a thermometer in the oil tank, you have a preconceived expectation as to the range of what the number will be. That expectation has no bearing on the actual temp, though. If you expect the number to be 300F, but you actually saw 200F you can go around and tell people the number was 300F because is supported some agenda that your oil cooler wasn't working or something, but that would be "bad science".

In the situation above, someone may question your 300F assertion and retest it themselves and voila!, the truth comes out. Very simplistic analogy, of course.

I have some great personal experiences regarding running tests and coming up with drastically different results than I predicted. It happens, for sure.

Mike

But do you really want public schools teaching your child about religion? Which religion would they teach? All of them? Only a few? What if you lived in a predominantly Muslim area (Dearborn, MI, for example) and the public school system decided to teach Islam to your children. Is that OK? Is it really the job of the public school system to make sure that your children are exposed to religion or should you, as a parent, take control of that aspect of their lives?

I actually appreciate where you are coming from, but the devil is in the details.

Mike

This seems to be a very interesting and engaging issue !

Unfortunately my limited knowledge of the English language (see my avatar name), makes it difficult for me to follow the discussion comprehensively.

Would any kind soul please explain - in short - what the controversy boils down to exactly.

Thanks,

:confused: Completely lost me.....

Must be I am not evolved enough to follow your logic :D

A good theology course is not a bad idea at all. Fascinating stuff. I had a great theology course in college. Read the new testament in it's entirety for the first time as well as most of the Quran. I don't see how a proper course in theology could be a problem.

Right now, God is laughing at all of us.

To me... It's about schools teaching that evolution of man is the only way to explain man's existence and/or where we came from.

- Skip