What are the facts, exactly?

Thats why I specifically wrote "facts".

Facts (without the " ") in my book is basically a term involved in scientific contexts, ie something you measure, calculate in a statistically reproducible fashion.

But as I stressed, thats the scientific non-religious way of seeing the world.

The answer from a believer would be : And what exactly does those "facts" prove ??

And then, of course, I am lost - since there is just now way to comprehend each other.

Actually, its like a Chinese meeting a Swede, don´t understand a syllable either one of them. Both might as well be right...;)

Random mutations in genetic material will occasionally give rise to new features that offer a selective advantage and then become more and more common in the population until the entire species shares the new trait. This is evolution. It is fact.

DNA sequencing allows chromosome "roadmapping" that is so precise that we can identify the distinct ancestry of one group within a population and clearly identify it's lineage.

We can tell if similar species developed independently or if one branched from the other.

There has not yet been one species studied whose development cannot be reasonably explained by the fundamental tenets of evolution. Is man an exception? Perhaps. I doubt it, but it's possible.

Moses,

I am with you on this. Sounds like you also read Mr Dawkins 'The selfish gene'.

Like I said, no matter how elegant displayed, the answer could always be - ..'and what does that prove ?'

Very few Swedes ever learn to understand Chinese - and vice versa.

This is perhaps the best single sentence description of natural selection that I have read. I applaud you for your economy of words and clarity of thought.

Had you been just slightly better looking, you would have been well suited to be a Lawyer. :) :)

One wonders whether the nice people up in Oakland, who have determined that language is genetic, attended a public school wherein ID was posed as a legitimate alternative to Darwin.

What's next, Lamarckian "inheritance of acquired characteristics?"

OK. I think I agree with you on the above...

But wait, I thought we were arguing the claim that evolution (or science in general) is the answer to the origin of man question - along with the implications of teaching it in school.

When you say...
Then how do we handle the issue? Do we just say we don't know, yet? Or, do we say, some people think this and some people think that? Why not allow ID into this conversation, as an option?

Or, have I missed your point completely?

- Skip

I guess I haven't been clear.

A science teacher should make the point that while evolution is an established fact and is generally attributed to the origins of our species, the linkage is yet unproven. The opinions of a theologian have no place in a science class.

Similarly, I would think it inappropriate for a theology professor to begin a study of the bible by saying, "Most of what you will read in Genesis is scientifically unfounded."

Most scientists I know don't struggle with this at all. Many are deeply religious, mostly Christian. They do not demand scientific precision from a 2000 year old collection of writings that tell the story of their messiah. They are secure in their faith and certain of their science.

Most Americans would believe the earth is flat if the Bible told them so.

BRAVO Victor!

Thanks. It felt like I nailed it.

>Most Americans would believe the earth is flat if the Bible told them so.

Most atheists would believe that we resulted from some big bang if ...oh...wait...they do believe that! :D

What was that I said earlier about the condescension and arrogance of atheists? Please join our discussion when you gain some maturity and rise above stereotypes of American Christians.

And that's the problem.

Moses- If we're mostly all so stupid, why do you bother conversing/arguing with us?

Respectfully, I've heard many people argue that the earth is only 6000 years old. This is no less absurd than thinking the earth is flat.

Does belief in carbon dating make one an atheist?

I reckon I made the most valid point in this whole "mature" discussion.

My father is one of the brightest people I ever met. When we discuss science or medicine, I'm astounded at how little he understands. When my father tries to explain to me how to fix my failing air conditioning, he's pretty sure his son is an idiot.

Like most people, I know a great deal about very little. I have learned more here than I have enlightened. If we ever get the chance to have a beer together, I'm sure you could spend hours plumbing the depths of my ignorance on many subjects.

Moses- I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm also sorry you feel that ignorance in a/c repair is in any way equilivant to the stupidity it would take to believe the earth was flat.

Moses - thanks for adding some really good insights into this discussion.

Mike

That sounds like a quote from Lee Strobel's A Case for Faith. I'm almost through reading that one.