Yep, and they are multipying a lot faster than the other group is, so we are being overrun by this group.

How to fix it? Very good question...

JoeA

Oh joy - you fellows sure have the knickers in a twist...

First of all the third pary system has been treating us fairly well for over two hundred years. With a few changes..

On the national level what we do need is a movement to undo gerrymandering and do away with so many "safe" congressional districts. So many congressmen are so secure - they can do what they like, including selling out to the highest bidder. We need some more good old competition. THAT would improve things.

Competition is good for everything, but how do you bring real competition into a system where success is punished? When you get things done, you're totally beat up on, meanwhile if you do nothing but watch polls and appease as many as possible, you're held up as a success. You'd have to be partially insane to get into it in the first place.

Nostatic's 'revolution' thread is still reverberating in my mind, and this is the same topic. I suspect that tech is right, that change has to be worked through existing parties. My personal belief is that there are two big changes that could have a profound effect on public policy making here:

Campaign Finance Reform

Information Distribution

Dan seems to be on the money,but it doesn't change,same *****,just different year, cynical..maybe..Sadly , most americans gave up on the goverment a long time ago. Joe has the right idea to work at improving the system...but if something works or is good...we know it to be offense to some snaildarter species somewhere....so it's back to the same sh8t..had some visitors from Europe this past week...his comment...you americans are your own worst enemy....don't worry about being attacked from the outside (like we have a border)..your elected officials are doing a great job for you.
Rika

Oh that pesky freedom of speech!:D

The Grand Canyon doesn't go through Arizona...that is just crazy talk.

The libertarian's problem is their platform is all over the map...they sound schizophrenic. Further, the third parties have no established intellectual resources, military leadership or foreign policy experience.

We need to keep what we have, the best in the world, and change it from within...It is the Democrat constituencies' job to clean up their corrupt party, and the same is true of the Republicans...The Founding Fathers had it right, and this is what the philosophical underpinning of the Conservative movement is, our best way to effect strict constructionism is within the Republican party.

In order for any "third party" to succeed they will, out of pure pressure, be pushed to the middle and be nearly indistinuishable from the other two...If a third party does succeed in quilting together a cohesive platform they will need to rely on existing extra-third-party intellectual muscle.

Viewed through the eyes of either political party, that is true. However, the platforms of both parties have largely been constructed out of convenience and political necessity.

The Libertarian platform has been constructed by applying a "pure" political doctrine to each situation. Namely, Libertarians believe that the government should be out of people's lives except where absolutely necessary. When applied to various situations, it comes out looking scatterbrained. Let's look at two issues: taxation and drugs. Now apply the Libertarian doctrine to each. Libertarians support very low taxation because it minimizes government involvement in people's lives, and with less money, the government has less of an ability to interfere. Libertarians support the legalization of many drugs currently considered illegal. It is not that they support the use of these drugs, but by actively trying to keep the drugs unavailable, the government is intruding into the lives of individuals.

That is scary...Most of these worldwide liberals vote for socialism, largess from the public trough, larger and larger government that controls every aspect of ones life...The only things they except are prostitution and drugs, which would have to be heavily regulated, taxed and at times subsidized.

Libertarians are all over the map, from legalizing prostitution and drugs and raising revenues from it, to the other spectrum of smaller government...Either you are for smaller government with less regulation and taxation, or you are not.

There is nothing "classically liberal" about modern liberalism.

As long as there are socialists there will be a prostitution of libertarianism...Libertarians will fight for personal freedoms and liberals will capitalize on social ills, social ills like prostitution and drug-addiction, which will eventuate the polar opposite of a libertarian construct, and that is dependency and welfare.

and hope to get in 18 holes once a week.
I'm happy if I can manage to get into one hole a week...

Mul, you should change your screen name to "Turing"

Not "Tourette"?

"Et tu Brute..." [exeunt stage right]

I think Mul is really a computer program that we're supposed to think is human, whose task is to auto-respond to anything that contravenes the NeoCon platform. A combination of whack-a-mole and speed dial, if you will. Like a poorly-maintained vending machine, every now and then it malfunctions and lets out too much bile at once, as evidenced by his two recent Libertarian/prostitution posts.

But see this description of Tourette's:

Tourette Syndrome (TS) is a neurological disorder characterized by tics -- involuntary, rapid, sudden movements or vocalizations that occur repeatedly in the same way. Diagnostic criteria include:

Both multiple motor and one or more vocal tics present at some time, although not necessarily simultaneously;

The occurrence of tics many times a day (usually in bouts) nearly every day or intermittently throughout the span of more than one year;

Periodic changes in the number, frequency, type and location of the tics, and in the waxing and waning of their severity.

Symptoms can sometimes disappear for weeks or months at a time;

Onset before the age of 18.

In this unusual case, vocalization occurs through the Internet and tics include ideological diatribes as well as short tics like "facts-is-facts" and "I school'd ya".

Yrs trly,

Sigmund Brutus

Same here. And as I said in that thread, I think politics is a dead end. I wish it were not so but it is. Better to solve problems outside the political system - like Joe Kennedy's oil company. Cynical people claim Joe left politics to avoid impending scandals. I think he left politics to get things done.

For example, put together a group of intelligent, well-educated and successful people (hmmm...where would you find people like that?), pick a problem they can agree on and combine their resources to solve it. Nostatic? Any interest in organizing such a thing?

Can't be certain I will ever succeed with that strategy, but I am certain someday I will try.

I'm surprised I haven't responded to this thread yet.

No, Thom, just an old punk rocker who doesn't trust the government and has decided to exhaustively educate himself to make sure that I am not unwittingly arguing in favor of "the man."

Just an American Indian/Russian/Norwegian/Pollock/Irish/French/German who loves his country.

http://republicafundamentalista.20me...ligulabush.jpg
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20a...caligula_w.jpg

Caligula Bush

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Caligula+bush&btnG=Google+Search

Guess it's not a new concept. ;)

I swear, next election I'm voting for the Pelican party.
Bottoms up.

This is the "Best Thread Yet" in the off topic about politics. (except for Mul.)

Exeunt is "all exit". I believe you wanted the singular rather than the plural.

e.g., Exeunt. Manet BlueSkyJaunte. (The company exits, BlueSkyJaunte remains.)

Are you sure educating yourself didn't exhaust you in the first 5 minutes and you had to stop?

We do have more direct democracy (in part because there are less of us, no state/federal distinction, and lobbying in the US sense of the word doesn't exist), but it isn't all a bed of roses.

Right now, we've got a cobbled together centrist coalition govt after a strange election in which the two main parties (equivalent to Dem and Rep) won about 40% each and several minor parties got between 1% and 5-6% each. These include Greens (obviously environmentalist), NZ First (control immigration, help old people, more police), Act (Libertarian), United Future (Family/Centre) and Maori (indigenous).

None of the minor parties like each other, so the forming of a coalition was very difficult and involved significant compromise. We will most likely have an ineffective govt for the next three years no matter how well the individuals perform. So... like I say, not a bed of roses.

Actually, I see politics as being defined by compromise - and since any Libertarian party is always so desperately pure, I don't see them having much power because they don't fulfil the required basic fundamental of politics which is to be something for everyone (well, for 50% of everyone).

"One of the Australian guys said that part of politics was different over there. The funding that is."
Our system is not quite as tied to special interests but is dominated by two central parties (labout - dem, liberal - repub) and both parties rely heavily on large scale donations from corporate & labour groups. The media probably plays a larger role in our country due to condensed ownership. There have been campaigns in the past where media interests have visibly 'jumped ship' midstream in return for law amendments promised. I don't think it would happen now as the public is a little more aware of this type of stuff.

If it makes you feel any better we currently have two parties - one of which is not appealing (the current govt), and the other which jumps up and down saying 'no they're wrong - we're right'. They're both useless.

All the while laws are being passed which the majority of Australians disagree but, as you've pointed out in the US, when there are only two major parties you're left voting for the 'least damaging option'. Interestingly, there has been enormous growth of votes in the minor parties over the last two election cycles.

To demonstrate our probs, the govt is about to pass laws allowing for arrest and detention without charge for two weeks (which can be renewed for another two week block indefina
itely), where the arrested person is not able to contact anyone. The arrested party can be held for the 'knowledge of something' that they didn't know they even had. If they can prove they didn't know something they may be released. But the govt dosn't have to tell the person what they were arrested for :)

Should a member of the media report this they can be jailed for 5 years.
Oh, and we're also looking at 'shoot to kill' provisions for police who have reasonable suspicion.

Police state anyone?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1129853556.jpg

Aurel

Let me guess: are they going to call it The Patriot Act?

Let me guess: are they going to call it The Patriot Act?

Same idea. Apparently these laws will prevent terrorists from killing people. The sad the is that to pass the laws, the federal govt needed the cooperation of the states and so the spineless buggers rolled over with nary a whimper. A sad day for another democracy. I feel the terrorists win every time we throw away our freedoms and rights in fear.

Thanks buddy...

Main Entry: ex·e·unt
Pronunciation: 'ek-sE-(")&nt, -"unt
Etymology: Latin, they go out, from exire to go out
-- used as a stage direction to specify that all or certain named characters leave the stage.

Well, there are some groups along these lines, but mostly they come together to create the *ideas* rather than put them into practice. Aspen Forum comes to mind, along with a lot of other groups.

I went to an LA Townhall event yesterday where Wallis Annenberg spoke. She talked about how the Foundation looked to fund proposals with "vision" that could effect real change. The problem is that most every problem runs into the "political factor". People have a tough time putting their agendas aside, and even if they can manage that, at some point you need to institutionalize solutions, usually through the government. That being said, perhaps a solution is found in 3rd world countries where NGOs actually have a decent track record of effecting change. Part of that is possible however by the power vacuum associated with fragemented governments. Corruption tends to negate many of the gains however, so you're still stuck in the quagmire.

I think that acting through education might be the way to do this, as we discussed earlier. The problem it is a long term solution that requires vision and patience. Those two factors are sorely lacking in the world these days, especially here in the US.

Right now I'm working up a proposal for a distater preparedness game/simulation to be used for training and team-building. In parallel I hope to be working with the Hewlett Foundation to expand their "open content" program, making educational materials free and open for all. That's my personal part in trying to clean up the mess. As for a broader solution...soon I'll no longer be in administration but rather a free agent so if I can find the funding, I'll work on something that I find interesting and worthy.

As long as Americans are bought off with Homes in the Burbs, SUV's in the Garage and Big Screen TV's to watch the latest sports extravangaza....they will remain fat, dumb and happy on the Bread and Circuses providedd to them. Sad but True.

The Political Process of 2 oposing political parties was corrupted when it was bought off by special interest groups giving money to both sides of the political spectrum. They win no matter who is in office.

Unfortunately in the course of human events, the only solution is for the system to get so top heavy with excess that it collapses under it's own weight. We, I believe are at the begining of the end...that transition from pragmatic practicality to self agrandizment at the expense of the system. The next step will be a defacto dictatorship...which we as citizens may allready have seen occur, that is debatable.

This is the basic mesaage that I have been preaching about for some time.

Neither party ultimately differnt from the other, they just have differnt groups of clients vying for their space at the trough of the public treasury.

Now the question is what can U do...I have yet to see anybody change the tides of the ocean...except Moses perhaps with devine intervention.....so perhaps the best thing tha tyou can do is to keep yours head up and be aware of whats really going on., because ultimately you don't want to be one of those people left standing on the deck of the Titanic as the last life boat rows away....

BTW...I think that is called being street smart...

Last time around, it started when a buncha terrorists threw a tea party...

Then U should welcome Osama as a fellow traveler...because it's this creeping enchroachment of the system into his culture that he is fighting against. only he picks up the banner of Islamic fundlmentalism as his rallying cry...instead of seeing it for what it really is.

Am as Republican as you can get, or used to be but I will say, over the past several months I have had my concerns...this party has lost it's shine and it's time to leave and go to bed.:(

Sad thing is, not sure the next party will be any better...just a different spin on the same complex ineptitude.

Tabs, there isn't much that can be done because the structure is fundamentatlly flawed. And parties are only part of the problem. And this is something that few Americans realize. The democracy was always too indirect over here. Back in the day when politicians were not half as crooked as they are now, or special interestes had far less influence, things worked. The basic flaws never revealed themselves. But they are showing themselves now in massive way. While more parties would be excellent, direct democracy is what is really needed. But government would never give up its power to the people. So I'll spend the next few years before I leave Dodge watching things and seeing if change does occur. Just for the sake of curiosity. But I'm not holding my breath while thinking provincially. Now tabs, you don't seem like the usual boy scout. You and I should talk one of these days about individual alternatives.