There always have been crooked politicians...just take a look at the Grant Administration.

No system is without flaws.

I think the problem is wealth and power, and everybody wanting a piece of the pie. And when belts should be tightened due to a downturn in the economy, nobody is willing to back their snounts outa the trough, and everyone is saying it's the other guy that should be the one getting cut and not them..Thus it is business as usual for better or worse.

Hell has frozen over. I agree with Tabs. I feel the same way.

Well, seeing as we're all playing "True Confessions", I'll admit that both sides are full of it. However, if we're going to spend a bunch of money, I'd rather see it spent on our citizens at home than given to big business as corporate welfare or spent on a BS war. So, until there is a viable alternative, I have to stick with the Democrats.

Dan

Last I checked there weren't any roadside bombs, suicide bombers, or mosques targeted in the Boston Tea Party. You aren't seriously equating Islamic extremists with the Founding Fathers are you?

Not sure what the history books are (or are not) teaching today, but there was a little more to our revolutionary war than throwing tea in the bay. And yes, the revolutionary fighters killed lots of people and were considered savages by the British.

Nothing like a little moral relativism to start the day . . .

Man Tech, I knew you were left but good Lord. Here we have daily bombings of churches and schools, bombs set off in the middle of people trying to sign up for a job, women strapping bombs to themselves so they look pregnant and then fake going into labor outside of a military checkpoint to pull troops closer before detonating, beheadings of innocent civilians, the list goes on and on.

And through all this you equate it to our Founding Fathers and the Revolutionary War.

I'm not sure what Sup is trying to do here, but this is the Wikipedia take on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:Terrorist_incidents

I would not raise an eyebrow if the terrorists were attacking our bases or our troops. If they want to use roadside bombs then fine, that's more like guerilla warfare. If Tech wants to equate their attacks on our convoys, bases or patrols to actions in our revolutionary war then fine. I cannot, however, sit by while he equates the founding of our country to the killing of innocent civilians, many of whom were simply looking for work to put food on their table, trying to go to church to worship their God, or schoolchildren.

The only comparison I can see is in the defense of the "Green Zones"...........................and that's stretching it.

Did you see what Wikipedia had to say about the attack on the USS Cole?

Interesting perspective and argument examined.

You can't 'sit by'? Does that mean you'll put another sticker on your car?

There were tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens just trying to put food on their table, etc., etc. who are dead now as 'collateral' casualties of our invasion of Iraq. As a proportion of the population, that would be like 250K+ Americans being killed by a foreign army. I have a feeling that if that happened there would be more than a few 'insurgents' and roadside bombs...

But I guess for some, Iraqis arent' really full-fledged humans... maybe 3/5ths?

T - do you have any links on this?:confused:

Here is an always credible socialist link... http://www.nsm88.com/articles/cost%20of%20the%20war.html

Speech freedom is never the problem. It's freedom of commerce that's the problem.;) SmileWavy

No Tech, I won't put another sticker on my car, in fact the only sticker on my car is the US Air Force one that allows me to get on base every day to do my job. I'll remember you next time I am sent over to the middle east to defend your right to sit in your cozy home and talk about how worthless our country is on this BBS.

Ed is somewhat brilliant, with many notions that are spot-on. In my humble view he's also got some ideas I still consider wacky, but for the most part Ed is lucid as he!!. What I'd like to point out here is that his accurate idea of what a "liberal" really is, is both ACCURATE and the OPPOSITE of what most of you think. Contrary to what you guys are brainwashed into thinking, liberals are all about liberty. Yep. In spite of what Rush tells you each morning, and what O'Reilly tells you each evening.

Never let the truth get in the way of a hard-fought narrow-minded opinion (paraphrasing).

A short reminder:

Article [I.]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What a freakin' crybaby.

If you are unlucky enough to be sent to the middle east, you will have my sympathy and 'support,' whatever that is.

The invasion of Afghanistan was necessary. No question. The invasion of Iraq has not 'protected our freedoms' any more than the Vietnam war did for my generation. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

What's your Patriot Index up to?

Just curious, what are you doing over in the middle east that allows him to sit in his home? How would he not be able to sit in his cozy home if you weren't going to the middle east?

This thread started as an interesting and fairly ernest discussion...watching the de-evolution of the discourse into the same tired crap has been dissappointing at best.

Wow...I really don't know how to respond here. I knew that many on this board were pretty far to the left, but this really is amazing. To think that not only does Tech actually think that the founding fathers were terrorists on the level of al Qaeda but that others on the board would come to his defense and agree with him is flabbergasting. Not to mention Tech summing up my service to our country by calling me a crybaby. Unfortunately experiences like these are what make it difficult for many of us to take the left seriously at all.

Is that another trick question.:D

Here is a question: Why are we using Depleted Uranium in our ammo when eveyone knows it causes birth defects and miscarriages?

It's not terrorism, so what is it called?

Naplam

Cluster Bombs

Land Mines

Stuff I don't want to know about.

Kach,

Its called war. You have never been in it, I can tell this for sure. When someone is trying to kill you it gets real nasty in a hurry.

We did not develope much of what you mention but we sure figured how to make it work better. The other side has used them on us in most cases and I did not hear you rant and rave about that!

JoeA

PS, I leave for the middle east in 4 days.

I'm seriously interested in the detail/history aspect of this.

Do share.

Did you see this link yet?

http://www.rivervet.com/

Up your alley.

Look on the internet if you are really interested, my time is too valuable to spend trying to teach you what you should know already.

Joe A

Depleted uranium makes ammunition more lethal against armor, because it is denser than the material of the armor. There is a good military reason for using it.

I suspect the health effects to civilians is extremely minor, relative to all the other causes of civilian death during war. I once estimated that something like 25,000-40,000 civilians have died during the Iraq war (can't find the thread where we were discussing this, but it was roughly that). I'd be surprised if 5 of these were due to depleted uranium ammunition. If anyone has hard data, I'd be interested.

More like a million deaths over a ten year peroid, although no one, not even the UN is willing to fund a proper study of the problem.

Hey, it's just environmental pollution, right?

Well, that spontaneous outbreak of good will and civility was short lived.

Now we back to ripping the ***** out of one another :(

Where is the love (3x)
Where is the, where is the love (3x)
I don’t know a single reason
Tell me why you turned your back on me
I can’t find a sign of treason
My love is build on honesty
Without you, I’m slowly dying
I’ve got a broken heart in me
I found out, the night ain’t lying
I’m half the man I used to be
You are the sunshine in the morning
And my comfort in the night
But then you left without a warning
In ecstasy you run and hide
Where is the love
Baby don’t keep me, don’t keep me hanging on
Where is the love
I feel like dying
I’m crying since you’ve been gone
Where is the love
Where is the, where is the love
Lonely days with my desire
You’re the centerfold of all my dreams
You’re the flame to light my fire
Higher than a fire’s ever been
You are the sunshine in the morning
And my comfort in the night
Where is the love
Baby don’t keep me, don’t keep me hanging on
Where is the love
I feel like dying
I’m crying since you’ve been gone
Where is the love
Baby don’t keep me, don’t keep me hanging on
Where is the love
Where is the, where is the love (2x)
Where is the love
Where is the, where is the love (3x)
Where is the love
Don’t keep me, don’t keep me hanging on
Where is the love
I feel like dying, I’m crying since you’ve been gone
Where is the love
Baby don’t keep me, don’t keep me hanging on
Where is the love
I feel like dying
I’m crying since you’ve been gone
Where is the love
Where is the, where is the love
Where is the, where is the love

Jeez, last time I checked this thread everybody was singing kumbaya. I can't leave you folks alone for a minute, can I? :D

BTW: Can somebody change the spelling to CALIGULA?

Sorry, I'm just tired of two people on OT who seem to be having a pity party.

You know, I might have forgotten a few things in the 35 years since I was in the Army, but I sure don't remember my friends wallowing in self pity. And a lot of them were not there voluntarily.

However you serve, whether by ladling soup to the homeless or extinguishing fires or shooting up someone else's country, you'd better not be doing it for the thanks.

And exactly where in my posts did I EVER ask for your or anyone else's thanks?? I serve for my own personal reasons, certainly not to try and get "thanks" from an anonymous BBS.

It certainly does chafe, though, when you equate the people who are murdering innocents and killing my fellow servicemen to George Washington and Ben Franklin. And please, spare me the usual line about civilian casualties in war. There is a big difference (and as a self proclaimed former Army man you know this) between accidental or collateral civilian casualties and DELIBERATELY targeting civilians. By saying there is no difference, you are essentially calling myself and anyone in the service terrorists.

If you want to bash the war, fine. Hate the government or Bush? Great. Post away. I'll be happy to have a sane and friendly discussion about whatever you like. But when you equate al Qaeda to the founders of this nation and call myself and every other serviceman who has served over in the sandbox a terrorist, I get a bit riled.

Hey, at least Caligula was getting laid.

Just saw that movie again not too long ago, kinda tame by todays standards. Although that head chopping thing was pretty cool

Very well said!

The object of war is to kill your enemy...so who the fk cares if a Uranium bullet kills em...you want to inflict as much harm on your enemy so that he wants to quit. Get the idea, your not out to hug your enemy to death.

Who the fk says war has got to be nice. It is a dirty business.

Marsh Robert E Lee said, "It is a good thing war is so horrible, or one could get fond of it."