Advice And Thoughts - Portland And/Or Seattle?

[jyl]

It looks like I may have the chance to move to Portland. There is also an opportunity that may emerge in Seattle.

Could the PNW'ers give me their thoughts on the pros and cons of both cities?

I'll include some background if it helps. We have kids. I like to autocross, camp, flyfish, downhill ski, and recently got back into shooting. An active Porsche community would be a plus. The significant other likes cross-country skiing. The kids are into camping, soccer and skiing. We're not into nightlife at all. I like to cook, the wife is an organic foodie. Photography, bookstores, and pottery round out the pastimes. I don't have much tolerance for long commutes in bad traffic (I usually take mass transit to work). We both know Seattle fairly well (wife grew up in WA, I lived there as a kid), neither of us know Portland thogh we've taken a few summer vacations on the OR coast. Living in the SF Bay Area, I don't have a problem with rain and cold, although I guess less is always better than more. The kids go to private school now, a good elementary/jr high system is okay but a good high school is more important and a good public university will become important. Lower taxes (income, sales, property) would be nice.

I don't really have any issues with the SF Bay Area, I mostly love it there. The idea of moving is job-inspired - better work, more money. I would be interested in a less inflated real estate market.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I lived in Portland for about 10 months. When there's nice weather, I can scarcely think of a nicer city I've been to. The problem is, that's about 25 days out of every year. Most of the time it's cold, raw, dark, damp, rainy and generally miserable.

The outdoor opportunities are great in the northwest, but again, you're limited by very rare good weather opportunities to enjoy them. Portland is a very pleasant place to live aside from the horrible weather though; people generally tend to be nice and friendly and open-minded. It gets kinda' hickish in the rural parts of Oregon though.

When we lived there it was VERY economically depressed. Apparently it took a horrific hit after the dot-com crash and never really recovered. There was a lot of poverty, lots of people out of work and down-on-their-luck types. Maybe it's turning around now, but it was such a crummy job market we got the heck out of there and back to SoCal where there were at least decent jobs to be had. If you're going there for a job, make DAMN sure you're indispensible or very secure in being guaranteed work. Having gone through it, it's not a place I'd want to be laid off in.

That said, it has the potential to be a nice place to live, but you better like rain and crappy weather.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by jyl
I'll include some background if it helps. We have kids. I like to autocross, camp, flyfish, downhill ski, and recently got back into shooting. An active Porsche community would be a plus. The significant other likes cross-country skiing. The kids are into camping, soccer and skiing. We're not into nightlife at all. I like to cook, the wife is an organic foodie. Photography, bookstores, and pottery round out the pastimes. I don't have much tolerance for long commutes in bad traffic (I usually take mass transit to work).

Porsche parade in Portland (say THAT three time fast) next year.

Lots of great outdoor activities... when it's not raining or if you don't mind it raining.

Organic foodie heaven... bookstore heaven...

They do have some mass transit, make sure your housing is close to it, and hopefully your work also (my hotel on a recent work trip had a trolley stop out front, nice).

Note: I haven't lived in Portland but have a friend who does and I have visited a few times.

[island911]

what's happening now.



see, the whole week isn't shot. There's a good chance that, later in the week, we may get some rain breaks, and some BRIGHT gray.

Somehow the real estate market is expected to climb here, over the next few years.

[jyl]

In what I do, the job market is pretty thin everywhere except NYC and Boston. Positions are not really advertised, decisions take several months, and hiring is quite seasonal. Even in the SF Bay Area, if I were to unexpectedly lose my job, I would be prepared for up to a year of job-hunting and a likely move, to find the "right" position.

That said, the industry in Portland and Seattle are certainly even thinner than SF, LA and SD, so it is an issue.

P.S. Weirdly enough, I'm also looking at something in Vermont, where I think the industry is thinner than tissue paper.

[Mulhollanddose]

Portland has a track and is closer to California tracks...Less rain.

[D'STARGA]

Both cities have inflated realestate market right now. Both get a ton of rain. And this can't be emphasized enough. IT RAINS OUT HERE!. Other than that both are great cities. Portland has a better mass transit system and less traffic. Portland has some great book stores (powells) and schools and such are fine as long as you do your research. I love it here but it is not for everyone. If you prefer less hustle and bustle then I would go with Portland. I love to visit seattle but am happy I live in portland.

[lendaddy]

ok, not to hijack, but what the hell is a "good bookstore"? I go to one of the seven in town, get what I need, then leave. Am I missing something in the experience? So much so that people consider it in relocation decisions?

John, don't you do marketing?

[jyl]

Originally posted by D'STARGA
Both cities have inflated realestate market right now. Both get a ton of rain. And this can't be emphasized enough. IT RAINS OUT HERE!. Other than that both are great cities. Portland has a better mass transit system and less traffic. Portland has some great book stores (powells) and schools and such are fine as long as you do your research. I love it here but it is not for everyone. If you prefer less hustle and bustle then I would go with Portland. I love to visit seattle but am happy I live in portland.

D'targa, I did some quick research and my impression is that Portland house prices rose at sort of 5-7%/yr for a while through 2003, then jumped >10% in 2004. Is that right? What does the housing market feel like in 2005 so far?

I am a major bear on house prices, as we've discussed in the various RE threads. But if I bought a $500K house in Portland and it fell 25%, that's one thing, but if I bought a $1+MM house in the SF Bay Area, and it fell 25%, that's another kettle of fish. Plus my income would actually be higher if I moved.

Len, I don't do marketing. I pick stocks for portfolios - mutual funds and pension funds. As you might imagine, it's been a quite a ride since the bubble burst.

[island911]

Originally posted by lendaddy
ok, not to hijack, but what the hell is a "good bookstore"? . ...

a Technical bookstore. Most all bookstores are the same crap, fiction/opinion . ..

What ever your looking for . . flight patterns of Plutella xylostella . . (or not even looking for) whatever; powells seems to have a technical book on the subject.

I try to stay away from the place. I think the best I've done is to come out only a couple hundred buck poorer.

[HardDrive]

Powells is indeed a unique book store.

I would go with Seattle over Portland. Much more of a comopolitan feel. Portland is a bit too crunchy for my taste. Unless you and your wife are patchouli oil wearing, PETA loving Phish fans, I think you would be happier in Seattle. Great town to raise kids btw.

I live in Seattle proper, but most on the board here live on the 'East' side, meaning on the east side of Lake Washington. Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland.....

The exception would be island911, who lives on Mercer Island. The signs on the way in say, "Welcome to Mercer Island. We live here, you DON'T"

[island911]

Poverty rock has a Welcome sign?

[WolfeMacleod]

Originally posted by D'STARGA
Both cities have inflated realestate market right now. Both get a ton of rain.

Pththt. We don't get tones of rain. We just say that to keep the Californians from moving here

But really, over the last two summers it's been real nice. Only really started our raining season about two weeks ago. Summer was very little rain. Nearly draught conditions.
Or traffic is horrendous though.

[jyl]

Originally posted by HardDrive
Powells is indeed a unique book store.

I would go with Seattle over Portland. Much more of a comopolitan feel. Portland is a bit too crunchy for my taste. Unless you and your wife are patchouli oil wearing, PETA loving Phish fans, I think you would be happier in Seattle. Great town to raise kids btw.

I live in Seattle proper, but most on the board here live on the 'East' side, meaning on the east side of Lake Washington. Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland.....

The exception would be island911, who lives on Mercer Island. The signs on the way in say, "Welcome to Mercer Island. We live here, you DON'T"

My wife and I have always wanted to live on one of the islands - Bainbridge or Vashon. We have friends on Bainbridge, and I'd rather commute by ferry than sit in traffic.

[island911]

Originally posted by jyl
My wife and I have always wanted to live on one of the islands - Bainbridge or Vashon. We have friends on Bainbridge, and I'd rather commute by ferry than sit in traffic.

Do you like sitting in ferry holding traffic?

The lines on Bainbridge kinda suck. They really aren't enough of a slope to turn your car off and coast forward those few car lengths per minute. Vashon has a nice steep hill . . but only for the last bit.

Whidbey has the best holding lanes . . nice slope (both sides of the water too). But Whidbey is pretty far north, and if you arrive in the morning before the first ferry leaves you will just make it on to the second ferry of the morning. (well thats how it was for me a few years ago, commuting off Whidbey to Seattle - could be worse now.)

Mercer Island commute sucks when there's a Marineers baseball game. . . .but only if you're commuting from the East-side. . . or want to head into Seattle from MI. I think every eastsider goes to the damn Marineers games. The bridges get clogged onto the island, and off again, headed west to seattle.

[jyl]

Originally posted by island911
Do you like sitting in ferry holding traffic?

The lines on Bainbridge kinda suck. They really aren't enough of a slope to turn your car off and coast forward those few car lengths per minute. Vashon has a nice steep hill . . but only for the last bit.

Whidbey has the best holding lanes . . nice slope (both sides of the water too). But Whidbey is pretty far north, and if you arrive in the morning before the first ferry leaves you will just make it on to the second ferry of the morning. (well thats how it was for me a few years ago, commuting off Whidbey to Seattle - could be worse now.)

Mercer Island commute sucks when there's a Marineers baseball game. . . .but only if you're commuting from the East-side. . . or want to head into Seattle from MI. I think every eastsider goes to the damn Marineers games. The bridges get clogged onto the island, and off again, headed west to seattle.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I hate taking a car on the ferry, done that many times when visiting friends. I'd walk on/off.

It's really too bad Seattle never built itself a light rail system like BART. Seems like it's too late now - or are they trying?

BTW, is the ferry service shrinking? I recall that Vashon lost one of its ferry routes a couple years ago, don't know if they got it back.

[HardDrive]

Yeah, I'm with island on this one. Mercer Island is a large island at the south end of lake washington. It has a nice 6 (8?) lane bridge that connects it with the 'mainland'.

Bainbridge, Vashon, whidby.....those islands are out in Puget sound, meaning a ferry ride is nessecary to get into Seattle. My boss and our VP do this everyday.....which means that at times they are late. I helps if you have a flexible schedule or you can work 4 days a week.

Island life is quieter, no question. It really helps if you ride a motorcycle. I don't know the logistics of it, but evidently it is easier to get on the ferrys, and cheaper to.

[HardDrive]

Originally posted by jyl

It's really too bad Seattle never built itself a light rail system like BART. Seems like it's too late now - or are they trying?

There is a light rail system being built. But you don't hear about it because of the massive conflict over the monorail. The local idiots want to spend $11.5 BILLION dollars to build a 10 mile long monorail.

[island911]

Yeah, Vashon lost one of its ferry routes a couple years ago,strictly as punishment for passing a tax cutting initiative.

The State of Washington also has a law forbiding any others forms of ferry or water taxi services.

Vashon finally got it (mostly?) back. . . but it was pretty ugly for a while there. Also note, with Vashon, you are catagorized (as almost evil) if you dont live AND work on the island. (hopefully something like sculpture, or llama farming . . bead-stringing ..

[island911]

Originally posted by HardDrive
. .. It really helps if you ride a motorcycle. I don't know the logistics of it, but evidently it is easier to get on the ferrys, and cheaper to.

Very good point.

motorcycles and bicycles get to go to the front of the line. (first on, first off)