Texas Size KILL ZONE

[djmcmath]

Ok, I'll admit to being a submariner. Let me clear some things up:
1 - Inverse square law applies to sound in water, too, just like common sense (and science) dictates it should. Further, there are also propogation losses due to interaction with surface and bottom as well as with suspended particles or other material in the water. Inverse square prop loss is really an unrealistic best case. Even in a carefully directed ping, the signal is attenuated pretty quick -- the logic that "focusing" a beam somehow makes it go farther works well for lasers because they're completely different than transducers.
2 - LF Active has some theoretical advantages, namely the range. However, there are other disadvantages that make it nearly useless, really.
3 - Submariners detest active. It gives away our position like nothing else. We detest all self-noise. Active sonar is the sort of thing that we use only in extremis, and only to the minimum extent absolutely required by the tactical situation.
4 - Worse even than a simple ping is a super-loud ping. Nobody fires a ping at max intensity. Not only is it unnecessary, it's tactically idiotic.
5 - Worse even than a really loud ping is an omni-directional ping. You may or may not find the guy you're looking for, but not only does he know where you are, so do his 6 buddies floating nearby.


Your Friendly Local Submariner, now leaving communications depth...

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Ok, I'll admit to being a submariner. Let me clear some things up:
1 - Inverse square law applies to sound in water, too, just like common sense (and science) dictates it should. Further, there are also propogation losses due to interaction with surface and bottom as well as with suspended particles or other material in the water. Inverse square prop loss is really an unrealistic best case. Even in a carefully directed ping, the signal is attenuated pretty quick -- the logic that "focusing" a beam somehow makes it go farther works well for lasers because they're completely different than transducers.
2 - LF Active has some theoretical advantages, namely the range. However, there are other disadvantages that make it nearly useless, really.
3 - Submariners detest active. It gives away our position like nothing else. We detest all self-noise. Active sonar is the sort of thing that we use only in extremis, and only to the minimum extent absolutely required by the tactical situation.
4 - Worse even than a simple ping is a super-loud ping. Nobody fires a ping at max intensity. Not only is it unnecessary, it's tactically idiotic.
5 - Worse even than a really loud ping is an omni-directional ping. You may or may not find the guy you're looking for, but not only does he know where you are, so do his 6 buddies floating nearby.


Your Friendly Local Submariner, now leaving communications depth...

See, I told these guys rule. I hope all is well djmcmath...do well in the fleet.

[djmcmath]

Thanks, Seahawk. Never underestimate the power of a (cued) airborne search, though.

[kach22i]

Probably unrelated, but interesting.

Scores of Fish Beach Themselves in N.C.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060226/ap_on_sc/fish_jubilee

Sun Feb 26, 1:48 AM ET

JACKSONVILLE, N.C. - State and local wildlife experts are trying to figure out what led more than a thousand flounder, spot and pin fish to beach themselves at the Marine Corps' New River air base — and then swim away.

They believe it may be related to a popular phenomenon known in coastal Alabama as "jubilee."

The fish surfaced in shallow water Friday morning. They were lethargic, but alive.

"It's kind of strange," said Mike Sanderford, New River Riverkeeper. "It's a bunch of fish up here, but they're not dead. They're almost docile."

When he arrived, Sanderford said, the fish were lying in shallow water and allowed him to touch them before they swam away.

Representatives of the Division of Water Quality, N.C. Marine Fisheries and N.C. Marine Patrol checked on the fish along the air station's shoreline Friday morning. One expert estimated about 1,000 to 1,500 were crowded in the waterline.

But by afternoon, they were gone. The timing matched another oddity: the water's oxygen level, which veered from one extreme to the other.

"We measured the oxygen levels in the water this morning and they were very low," said Stephanie Garrett, environmental technician with DWQ. "Then two and a half hours later, they were high."

She said that might be a clue that the area saw a case of the "jubilee" phenomenon, in which thousands of live, healthy fish beach themselves.

Scientists know that a jubilee occurs when variety of factors deoxygenate the water, forcing fish to the shore.

Jubilees occur in a number of places, but nowhere as often and as regularly as on Mobile Bay's eastern shore. Jubilees usually occur during the summer, providing a free feast to locals who head to shore to gather the fish up.

"It's normal to them, they all know the conditions that are needed and go down with gigs to get the flounder," said Bianca Klein, biologist at the Air Station. "It's definitely a rarity here, though."

Only about 50 fish died, and that may not have been from natural causes.

"The flounder that were dead were the big ones," Sanderford said. "We're guessing someone came out here early this morning and started to pick out the biggest ones to take home for dinner, but wondered why they were beached and thought something might be wrong with them."

___

Information from: The Daily News, http://www.jdnews.com

Camp Lejeune = Marine Corps' New River air base?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Base_Camp_Lejeune

Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune is near Jacksonville, North Carolina, on the Atlantic seaboard of the United States.

Camp Lejeune is home to the U.S. Marine Corps's II Marine Expeditionary Force, 2nd Marine Division, three other major Marine commands and a Naval hospital. As of the early 2000s, the base population is 143,491 of which 43,100 are in uniform.

The base occupies 246 square miles (637 km²) and contains 6,946 buildings. The base's 14 miles (23 km) of beaches make it a major training area for amphibious assault training, and its location between two deep-water ports allow for faster deployments.

The main base is supplemented by four satellite facilities. When added to the main base and MCAS Cherry Point, they make up the largest concentration of Marines and U.S. Navy sailors in the world. These satellite facilities are: Camp Geiger, Stone Bay, Courthouse Bay, and Camp Johnson, home to the Marine Corps Combat Service Support Schools........................................... ............
To add to the bases around Camp Lejeune is MCAS New River, which is home to USMC helicopter and V22 Osprey squadrons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Air_Station_New_River

Marine Corps Air Station New River is a helicopter base near Jacksonville, North Carolina, in the eastern part of the state, at 34.71° N 77.44° W. Its ICAO airport code is KNCA.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/ii-mef.htm

The 2d Marine Aircraft Wing (2d MAW) is headquartered at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina, with subordinate units located at MCAS New River, N.C. and MCAS Beaufort, S.C. The 2d MAW includes a Marine Wing Headquarters Squadron, an air control group, a support group, one combined fighter-attack and all weather fighter-attack group, one light attack group, and two helicopter groups. There are also aerial refueling and air defense capabilities. In total, 2d MAW has nearly 400 aircraft.

The 2d Force Service Support (2d FSSG) is also located at Camp Lejeune. In addition to its headquarters battalion, it is composed of the following battalions,: landing support, maintenance, motor transport, supply, engineer support, medical and dental.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Bay_jubilee

Mobile Bay jubilee
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Jubilee is the name used locally for a natural phenomenon that occurs from time to time on the shores of Mobile Bay, Alabama, USA. During a jubilee, blue crabs, shrimp, flounder, stingray, and eels swarm toward the shore in such numbers that the shallow water near land seems to boil with life. People living near the shore rush down to the water with washtubs, gigs and nets, and gather a bountiful -- and easily reaped -- harvest of seafood. As jubilees only happen on warm summer nights, often in the early pre-dawn hours, the event takes on the aspect of a joyous community beach party.

No one knows what causes a jubilee. One theory revolves around oxygen depletion caused by decay of organic material settling on the bottom of the bay, a process that is accelerated during the summer. Coupled with certain climatic conditions, this is believed to drive the crabs, shrimp and fish (particularly the bottom dwelling ones) toward the shore in a desperate search for more oxygen-rich water.

Jubilees cannot be predicted with certainty. Local folklore offers some clues for telling when one might be in the offing: The water is calm the day before and during the event itself, the wind is gentle and blowing from the east, the tide is rising, and the sky is cloudy or overcast. Not all of these conditions must be present before a jubilee can occur, though, nor does the presence of all of them at once guarantee a jubilee. To the residents of Mobile Bay's eastern and western shores, the jubilee remains as a mysterious -- and most welcomed -- gift from nature.

Man or nature - you decide.

[928ram]

The Jubilee at Mobile Bay has been going on since recorded history of the area, so one could hardly say it's influenced by man.
The bay here is very shallow for the most and can easily be influenced by by bad weather and extended periods of sunlight, which would certainly change the water's ability to retain O2. Other theories have to do with algea content and blooms which would of course be likewise influenced by the CO2 content.

Natural.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Spotted Owls.

Mmmmm...Spotted Owls...taste like chicken.

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Ok, I'll admit to being a submariner. Let me clear some things up:.

. .Submariners detest active. It gives away our position like nothing else.

....

That's what I was thinking. Else, guys like Seahawk would only have to follow the path of dead floating fish.

[Mulhollanddose]

Just a gratuitous picture of a great man...no reason really.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Whenever environmentalists have a movement or petition or lawsuit to "ban" something, there's a simple test to determine if they are yahoos or not: Just ask them how many whales/spotted owls/little furry kittens/monkeys in cages it's acceptable to kill given various other benefits to society.

If they say "none" then say "thanks for coming" and move on, since you're dealing with a wacko fringe group. If they've actually done an analysis and their argument is that a proposed action will impose an excessive burden on an ecosystem, species, etc, then--just maybe--you're dealing with reponsible, thoughful scientists who have a valid point.

The prime consideration in this argument is the answer to the question, Does the US Navy need this system? The answer to that is a profound no.

The cold war is over and has been since 1989. This is why the US government military needs a serious reining in, they're still operating as if 2006 is 1956.

[Seahawk]

Submarines are not relics of the Cold War, Pat. We are a maritime nation...the proliferation of relatively cheap, diesel subs is subject you might want to explore.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Seahawk
Submarines are not relics of the Cold War, Pat. We are a maritime nation...the proliferation of relatively cheap, diesel subs is subject you might want to explore.

I'm aware that more nations are buying these military toys; a very foolish expenditure of capital, but then these are the naval equivalent of privately owned cigarette boats.

So, just how would another nation successfully attack America with one of these subs? Answer, none will because there is no known method.

What will another nation do with these subs? Sink American warships sitting off their coasts deploying agents or intimidating their shipping lanes.

Our government is spending the same as the next 27 countries added together; other nations rightly perceive that as a deadly threat, and the threat has been made real by the Iraq attack, invasion, and partial conquest; and the saber rattling and more against Syria and Iran.

So, again, I state that the US Navy profoundly does not need this equipment.

[island911]

that's it? . . that's all you've got? "no method"

[Seahawk]

I'm aware that more nations are buying these military toys; a very foolish expenditure of capital, but then these are the naval equivalent of privately owned cigarette boats.

Nope. You confuse cigarette boats with warships. I don't have that option.

just how would another nation successfully attack America with one of these subs? Answer, none will because there is no known method.

Your lack of insight into the weapons carried on these vessels voids your statement.

Our government is spending the same as the next 27 countries added together; other nations rightly perceive that as a deadly threat, and the threat has been made real by the Iraq attack, invasion, and partial conquest; and the saber rattling and more against Syria and Iran.

Doesn't apply...you know better.

So, again, I state that the US Navy profoundly does not need this equipment.

Active sonar is the only way to defeat these vessels. I profoundly think that the small investment is needed.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Seahawk
I'm aware that more nations are buying these military toys; a very foolish expenditure of capital, but then these are the naval equivalent of privately owned cigarette boats.

Nope. You confuse cigarette boats with warships. I don't have that option.

Er no, it was a relative comparison between military buying fun toys and private individuals buying fun toys. There was no confusion on my part.

just how would another nation successfully attack America with one of these subs? Answer, none will because there is no known method.

Your lack of insight into the weapons carried on these vessels voids your statement.

In order to successfully attack America, a nation would have to have the capability to attack with thousands of weapons simultaneously, of the few that might approach having this capability none has any reason to do so. No reason for such an attack is expected to develop at any point in the future unless the US government stages yet another cluster fornication against yet another country.

Our government is spending the same as the next 27 countries added together; other nations rightly perceive that as a deadly threat, and the threat has been made real by the Iraq attack, invasion, and partial conquest; and the saber rattling and more against Syria and Iran.

Doesn't apply...you know better.

So, again, I state that the US Navy profoundly does not need this equipment.

Active sonar is the only way to defeat these vessels. I profoundly think that the small investment is needed.

I don't agree. Passive detection is significantly better, is less dangerous, and is less an offensive threat.

Now, you want to discuss permanent locations for these devices, and yes I realize the weaknesses of that, then perhaps. But in no case should the US government be issued yet another weapon to deploy outside American waters.

[island911]

Originally posted by fastpat
In order to successfully attack America, a nation would have to have the capability to attack with thousands of weapons simultaneously, . . .

Yeah, Like on 9/11.

What a failure those attacks were.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by island911
Yeah, Like on 9/11.

What a failure those attacks were.

Terrorist attacks are not attacks on all of America by submarine. While I'd think that's obvious to almost anyone, perhaps it's obscure.

Further, the attacks of which you speak were directly caused by the most colossal failure of the US government in the history of it's existence.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by fastpat


Further, the attacks of which you speak were directly caused by the most colossal failure of the US government in the history of it's existence.

***** is getting deep in this thread too. I think Red UFO is back.

[djmcmath]

Some interesting points being made here, and a lot of confusion. Fastpat, I think that your confusion about submarine employment (both by US and ROW forces) is an interesting point in itself. The Submarine Force on the whole is a very quiet bunch by nature. It's the Silent Service, except that we're so silent, nobody knows what we're up to. It's a bit of a quandary facing the Sub Force...

Some unclassified things that may be of interest ... the new diesel boats are very impressive platforms. Some of them are incredibly quiet, and carry extremely modern weaponry -- on par even with the US torpedoes. Like Seahawk says, active sonar is an excellent way to geolocate such a platform. Extremely low frequency active, as I noted above, and which is the original topic of this thread, is pretty silly, however. Even higher freqency active is becoming a less preferred method with the advent of some useful tools to counter it. Currently, the best way to find any submarine is to listen for it -- classic passive sonar. (Well, not quite "classic" passive sonar -- we've come a long ways since WWII...) A lot comes down to the training and experience of the crew, which is generally a reflection of the force as a whole. For example, it is well known that submarines from a certain country routinely make loud noises caused by crewmembers doing stupid things -- we'll say dropping hammers, leaving bits of metal in free-flood areas so they rattle when the boat moves, that sort of thing. Such a submarine is easy to find -- but it takes little more than crew training and attention to detail to transform such a boat from "impossible to miss" to "impossible to find."

Diesel boats present an interesting threat. Such a platform is more than capable of carrying and delivering an arbitrary weapon of choice to anywhere they'd like. While many of the older boats are very limited in speed and range, the newer boats are far more capable. A submarine threat capable of delivering a warhead of choice to anywhere in Europe or Asia has been a longtime reality. Submarines capable of (and interested in) delivering to the US are becoming an increasing likelihood.

The question for you, Pat -- how many nuclear warheads landing on US soil would it take to constitute an "attack?"

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by fastpat
Terrorist attacks are not attacks on all of America by submarine. While I'd think that's obvious to almost anyone, perhaps it's obscure.

Terrorist attacks are one threat. National attacks are another. Remarkably, both of those very disparate defenses are handled by submarines these days.

[Seahawk]

I don't agree. Passive detection is significantly better, is less dangerous, and is less an offensive threat.

Now, you want to discuss permanent locations for these devices, and yes I realize the weaknesses of that, then perhaps. But in no case should the US government be issued yet another weapon to deploy outside American waters. [/B]

You clearly don't know what you are "agreeing" with. And for the love of ASW, active sonar is not a weapon.

SOSUS is a joke, BTW, yesterdays news...