O.K......What is torture?

[aap1966]

If you want to ban torture....how do you define it?
This is a serious question. Making me do 200 push-ups would be torture. To the average SAS or SEAL it would be a light morning workout. The typical Iraqi terrorist may call bacon and eggs for breakfast cruel and demeaning, I call it brunch. Endless hours of ear-splitting rock music has been used by the American Military to wear down prisoners, and by my 15y.o. neighbour to wear down me.

How do you define "cruel, inhumane and degrading" treatment (McCain's words) clearly and unambiguously?
Serious issue, serious question, genuine interest.


P.S. Considered input please, not just "Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield is evil"

[darkbeer]

Perfect example:

Scott McClellan, White House "spokesman", on any given day, trying to explain &/or defend Bush's "policies" to the world Press. Watching him struggle under the glare of the lights & the pointed, simple, concise questioning, is an example of "cruel, inhumane and degrading" treatment. He reminds me of that spokesman for Saddam Hussain declaring "there are no american troops on Iraqi soil...they have been driven into Kuwait...."

Poor Scottie....he's to decent a guy to be any good at telling the lies of his keepers. He just doesn't have the stuff it takes like Rummy & Dickie do !

[aap1966]

Alrighty then..........making a prisoner sit through a press conference is out. Any other thoughts?

[darkbeer]

You want serious input ???? my sympathies, you may want to go to a university chat room or bbs where IQ's run a minimum of 3 digits. This site is more for harmless ranting then true intellectual exchanges. Just look at some of the folks that blather on here...many have literally thousands & thousands of "posts"....these are NOT great thinkers, just great blowhards !!!

[aap1966]

You're implying a university chatroom will provide intelligent input. Trust me, I went to Uni and from what I saw that is not neccessarily a valid assumption. Anyway, Pelicaners represent a greater cross-section of society than most other Boards.

Defining torture is like defining a hate crime. Can't be done effectively. This talk of ban on torture is window dressing to quiet down liberals.

[djmcmath]

Try defining pornography sometime. I don't know how to define it, but I'll know it when I see it.

On a serious note, the Navy (among other military organizations) has spent the last 20 years struggling through a definition for "hazing." Tradition demands, for example, that when your ship crosses the arctic circle, those who haven't yet been initiated into the circle go through a crazy ceremony involving a lot of ice. Is being forced to sit on a block of ice while someone dumps icewater over you considered hazing? Is that torture? Or is it simply a tradition, some harmless carryover from the Days of Sail that reminds us of our roots and brings us closer together as a community?

Despite what darkbeer says, there are some intellectuals here. Whether or not they'll come out for this discussion is another question, though.

Dan

[Eagle Keeper]

Darkbeer,

You say that we need to go to a university chat room to get "intellectual thinkers" inputs. Well every year these "intellectual thinkers" converge on my city for a few weeks of excess. And every year I am amazed at there stupidity. Last year one boy was killed when he fell from a th floor balcony. What was he doing you may ask? He was trying to see how far he could spit! There are numerous examples of these "intellectual thinkers" actions but I think you get the message.

And one more point. Why do you think that 18-22 year olds are more intellectual? Most of them have never lived on there own and are still having there bills paid by Mom and Dad. Don't get me wrong there are some who make it on there own, but a majority are there because Mom and Dad made them. Most have never been to another country, to learn others prospective on right and wrong. Family vacations don't count! I don't think there opinion carries that much weight in the grand scheme of things. Once they have grown up maybe they will have something interesting to say.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by darkbeer
You want serious input ???? my sympathies, you may want to go to a university chat room or bbs where IQ's run a minimum of 3 digits. This site is more for harmless ranting then true intellectual exchanges. Just look at some of the folks that blather on here...many have literally thousands & thousands of "posts"....these are NOT great thinkers, just great blowhards !!!

tabs, is that you?

[creaturecat]

the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

[red-beard]

Ah - so coming here _is_ torture! Thought so.

[island911]

mental suffering, counts then?

. .. Yet you Lib's keep coming back for more.


On a serious note; the original question "What is torture?" really leads to the bigger problem. . .a bigger question.

That is, do we impose some sort of widely known self-restriction on our military actions?

I can't help but think of the British military of the 1700's. They, somewhere, deceided that it be only proper to have all their army, only/always, march/attack in formation . . .and while sporting "target" red & white uniforms.

To do otherwise, would simply be barbaric, doncha know.

So really, let's follow the proper old British lead, and anounce to our enemy that we are here to give them a sporting chance.

[pwd72s]

Actually, this board is quite a haven for intellectuals. I was lucky to run across one of his posts just the other day...

[Joeaksa]

How about the torture that was inflicted upon the people in the WTC buildings or the airplane that crashed in the field when it could not make it to the White House? Was that torture? Slitting the throat of the flight attendent then letting her lie in the galley floor in front of the rest of the pax?

Lets get down to it. If a squad captured a member (or more) of a group of terrorists here in the states and you had evidence that they had or were getting ready to plant a nuke bomb around your town, how far would you go?

Remember that your wife, kids and rest of your family are in this town and this person is willing to kill them all for their personal beliefs. You could possibly find where the bomb is in time to defuse it but this individual is not willing to talk. How far are you going to go?

The situation gets different when its YOUR friends and family, and you are the one who needs to make the decision. I hope that I never am in that position but if I were the Geneva Convention goes out the window. They are not "playing fair" and were I in the same situation I would do anything needed to save my family.

As I said above, I hope I am never put in this position but when it comes close to home it might just make you think about it in a different light.

JoeA

[cashflyer]

Article: What is Torture? Give info regarding torture with the military and Irak as subject matter.

Torture will be hard to really define for all people. What I consider torture may be what another considers interrogation. What I deem inhumane, another may deem inconveinient. And as we see in Iraq, religion and culture will also play a part in the definition.

Will we need to redefine torture for every country that we enter?
Will the definition, like the Geneva Convention, it be a document that is accepted by some and completely ignored by others - leading to a situation where we could be fighting a country that plays by a different set of rules?




PS. I really like that your first reply was almost exactly what you asked to avoid.

[RANDY P]

PJ O'Rourke -

"Ignorance breeds apathy. Education breeds college students..."

rjp

[creaturecat]

How about the torture that was inflicted upon the people in the WTC buildings or the airplane that crashed in the field when it could not make it to the White House? Was that torture? Slitting the throat of the flight attendent then letting her lie in the galley floor in front of the rest of the pax?

JoeA - these actions are commonly refered to as "murder"

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Torture is something only enemies of the USA do. It's because they are a bunch of evil radical insurgents that hate our freedom. When we do the same thing it's different. That's why we have another word for it - it's called "interrogation" techniques. Which are of course done in accordance with accepted principles of international law. Not that the individuals in question are entitled to such generous treatment because they're "enemy combatants" but we don't torture. Nosirree. Not us.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by creaturecat
JoeA - these actions are commonly refered to as "murder"

Very few of the victims were killed immediately aside from those killed when the two planes hit the WTC.

The majority of them went through hell in the seconds, minutes or in some cases hours before they died, and if thats not torture then please tell us all what it was?

How about the people trapped on the top of one of the WTC buildings, smoke and fire coming up and knowing at the end that you were going to go 100+ stories to the ground to your death? How about those who gave up and jumped out of the window to their deaths rather than burn to death? Was that not torture?

Those in the back of the airliner being steered to Wash DC, then taken over by the brave passengers. When the terrorist crashes the plane rather than give control over to the pax, how did those in the back feel? Screaming all the way down to the ground... How can that not be torture?

How quickly we seem to forget where this started and those who gave their lives early on in this war on terror. Stop worrying about the poor terrorists (the ones trying to kill you and me BTW) and realize that you could be on the next jet that is hijacked or building that is brought down by these idiots. The sooner we all work together on ending this the better.

Joe A

[creaturecat]

End result - murder.
Murdered by whom? Syrians - Syrian Al Qaeda
Why is the "war" in Iraq, not Syria?
Where is OSB - Al Qaeda leader?
" How quickly we seem to forget where this started........" - agreed.
Please point out where I was "worrying about the poor terrorists....."