Simple view of liberal vs conservative

[stevepaa]

My view of the difference between liberal and conservative was reinforced yesterday. I met a VP outside of Kragen Auto stores who just got a promotion to corporate in DC. We were talking outside about how tough it is for our pensioners now because medical costs eat up their pensions until they are 65 when they are eligible for Medicare/Medicaid. I remarked how I wondered how an old guy working at Kragen will make it. His reply was "Well, they didn't plan very well, did they?”. I sense this attitude primarily among those who have been blessed with good genes. They have made it because they did it and those who didn’t are just lazy, good for nothings. It’s like the idea of the bell curve just doesn’t apply to human achievement. There will always be people who cannot achieve to a level to provide for themselves now or in old age. I believe it is the value we place on them that defines us.

[Superman]

As always, you have presented a very compelling case. Unfortunately, a goodly proportion of responders will not recognize it, and see a much simpler question instead.

[RANDY P]

well, as sad as it is, it's true. Sounds heartless and cold to say "well, too bad..." So a counterperson working at Kragen, at what (10% above state minimum) who obviously doesn't earn enough to support themselves? Who put 'em there? I guarantee you whoever makes a choice like that isn't a risk taker.

Counterpoint -

Where's the respect that's owed to the risk takers? - the guys who step out of their comfort zone, do different things to make a buck, sacrifice, take no guarantees from others in regards to making their way in life?

In other words, the self reliant? Those who feel that they need not burden their fellow man to pay their obligations in this world? Those who feel they are owed nothing until they provide something?

We all have to start somewhere, some of us just choose not to settle for what is simply handed to us.

rjp

[stevepaa]

Randy.
Well you reinforce my point. The risk takers are on one side of the bell curve and you think you are there because you made decisions to put your self there and the people on the other end made decisions to put themselves where they are.
Maybe, just maybe, you were on that side of the bell curve in distribution of the "self reliant" genes to start with, and others weren't.
To pretend that the people on the other side of the curve could have made decisions to put themselves on your side allows the "successful" to have the view you illustrate.
Such a view defies all rational explanation, but is vitally important to maintain to support one's ego and self esteem.

[RANDY P]

Originally posted by stevepaa

To pretend that the people on the other side of the curve could have made decisions to put themselves on your side allows the "successful" to have the view you illustrate.
Such a view defies all rational explanation, but is vitally important to maintain to support one's ego and self esteem.

Pretend. So, you're saying you really think that it's genetics which predisposes us to "failure"

I see what you're saying but unfortunately I can't agree. The liability to fail is where the difference lies. Although I may make more $$$ than the guy at Kragen, I guarantee you I will leave a much bigger hole in the earth if I fail.

It is a conscious decision, some people simply can't stomach the prospect of failure, so they prefer the comfort of guaranteed, but low income.

Take a look at the waves of immigrants that come to this country - Most of 'em can't even speak the language, but they brave the unknown, possible death and take the risk to make better for themselves. Many of 'em become wealthy and positive contributors to our society within a few years. They didn't settle for the familiar, and won't accept a miserable life from where they came frome. Genetics? Um, that's a bit of a stretch.

Only in this country do we have grown men who feel they have a right to entitlement just for being here. The rest of the world isn't like that. To have an opinion that to fail in life is simply due to genetics and therefore can't be helped or improved (puts it in the same class as skin color!) is simply a cop - out IMHO. It has nothing to do with bragging rights or ego or my self esteem.

rjp

[Moses]

The counter guy at Kragen has a steady, predictable but inglorious life. He is unlikely to know the panic and heartbreak of catastrophic failure or the brutal exhaustion of 16 hour work days. He made choices. Comfortable choices. It's not always pretty, but it's the essential flip-side of freedom. Even without an education, he could have chosen a more financially rewarding course. But for every guy who swings a 16 ounce framing hammer all day because the pay is good, there is a guy behind the counter at Kragens because that is where he wants to be.

True freedom includes the freedom to fail.

[stevepaa]

Well, that reminds me of my daughter who told all her teachers that she taught herself how to read. Never-mind the hours my wife in particular spent reading and teaching her to read. It really was on her own that she did it.

By definition, immigrants are risk takers.

I don't consider someone a failure if they do the best they can, but you seem to say that unless they do like you then they are.

I made no comment on those who feel an entitlement is theirs. I have a family member who thinks the world owes him everything.
That is not an attitude I promote.

I was postulating that ignoring that the bell curve applying to human personal attributes and achievements defies logic.

[dd74]

Doesn't all of this depend upon whose bell curve it is. Maybe the counter person at Kragen doesn't particularly care.

I equate it to people in the industry who have the acumen to rise upward within a studio, yet would rather not be troubled with the additional responsibility, even as it includes higher pay.

Perhaps the bell curve, as it's defined, is really too pejorative of what everyone should want and expect of themselves.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Moses
True freedom includes the freedom to fail.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Some view this as failure. I don't. Society needs all its members doing what they do, but to regard those of lesser ability and achievement as failures is apparently a strong trait among some achievers. And from my viewpoint separates those who say "There by the grace of God go I" from those that don't.

[RANDY P]

It seems like more of a personal annoyance or attitude adjustment to the wealthy is what's needed.

So the corporate guy pisses on those "below" him. It's really nothing serious. Once again, so is life.

Is this a Liberal cause to teach the mean and wealthy to behave? It's a serious waste of time.

In summary, who cares?


rjp

[RANDY P]

Originally posted by stevepaa


I don't consider someone a failure if they do the best they can, but you seem to say that unless they do like you then they are.

If you mean take a risk to improve your life, then yes that is what i'm saying. Do something or anything but try to change your life. Where is it that you're guaranteed to be happy or successful in life?

I don't consider or judge anyone a failure, unless they require me to take care of their obligations they've created. If you require my assistance and it's simply due to neglect you'll never hear the end of it from me.

I don't understand why fair and self-reliant can't be one in the same?

rjp

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by RANDY P
If you mean take a risk to improve your life, then yes that is what i'm saying. Do something or anything but try to change your life. Where is it that you're guaranteed to be happy or successful in life?

No where.

I don't consider or judge anyone a failure, unless they require me to take care of their obligations they've created. If you require my assistance and it's simply due to neglect you'll never hear the end of it from me.

I agree

I don't understand why fair and self-reliant can't be one in the same?
rjp

I don't think life is fair. We all have abilities and deficits. If we all do the best we can with what we have to start with, we get a distribution of achievements. Some are overachievers, sometimes due to luck. Some do miserably, sometimes by foolish decisions.

My mom sometimes admonished us to use the "brains God gave you". That implies that some didn't get them also.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Maybe, just maybe, you were on that side of the bell curve in distribution of the "self reliant" genes to start with, and others weren't.
To pretend that the people on the other side of the curve could have made decisions to put themselves on your side allows the "successful" to have the view you illustrate.

Heh, well you could say that Stevepaa also embodies the prototypical liberal. He thinks that it is his responsibility to provide for those who can't make it because he thinks they are genetically inferior...

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
Some people with very humble genetic backgrounds have done some pretty good things, including becoming president of the US.

You underestimate the benefits of having a grandfather that was a US Senator, a father that was a president, and more eastern establishment money than you or I could imagine in our wildest dreams

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Rodeo
You underestimate the benefits of having a grandfather that was a US Senator, a father that was a president, and more eastern establishment money than you or I could imagine in our wildest dreams

He was talking about Clinton.

[RANDY P]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
Duh.

Rodeo, get your genetics checked ASAP. You may be below the curve.

Maybe?! That's one angry Lib...!

So much I think he's inbred. I've seen pitbulls with better demeanors.

Just kidding with ya Rodeo. Sort of

rjp

[Rodeo]

I checked my genetics and they are fine thank you. Its my foreign and domestic policy I seem to be having trouble with.

Not sure, but I think the problem may be the "liberal media"

[Howard Agency]

I assume we're talking about Fiscal liberals and conservatives here. If we discount catastrophic illnesses and being in the wrong place at the wrong time, every person in this country can retire wealthy.

The bell curve is luck of the draw, but has less to do with success than individual effort. In support:

Most successful people got where they are with hard work and good planning. It's a simple matter of spending 10% less that you earn and saving those $$. Only take money out of the fund for a crisis or to buy something that makes $$. Easy as pie, even for the Kragen guy.

If you truly believes that you cannot control your ability to work hard or spend money wisely, you are neither liberal nor conservative, just a bit foolish.

[Rodeo]

George Bush would have been fired from Kragens four point five years ago. Even bet whether he would have noticed his change of status

Bill Clinton would have been promoted to VP of sales within a month of hire

Cheney would have tourtured the Chairman of the Board and been appointed CEO for life

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
WOW!

So you really believe that some people, because of genetics ("blessed with good genes"), are inherently inferior to others??

Does that go for races, too?

Sure. You don't believe others are inferior? I believe some are superior to me and some are inferior. How many Einsteins, Mozarts, Montanas, Alis have there been?

You really think we all have the same aptitude, intellect and physical capabilities?