Simple view of liberal vs conservative

[Nathans_Dad]

Holy smokes he ADMITS IT!!! Finally a liberal who will admit it. I think I can die now. Thank you Stevepaa. Someone mark this thread...a liberal who admits he has to help the poor and downtrodden because they are genetically inferior...

[Moses]

Originally posted by stevepaa
There will always be people who cannot achieve to a level to provide for themselves now or in old age.

So it seems that you are the one who views this Kragen lifer as a failure. I'm completely comfortable with him and his choices. So you think poverty is never a reasonable choice in life? Talk to an Ascetic.

[Rodeo]

I believe that human beings are thrust into this world with all sorts of advantages and disadvantages relative to each other.

Physical strength, intellectual ability, economic advantage, emotionial stability. And on and on and on. That's news? I don't think so.

How we deal with those less fortunate than the majority defines us a people. Some people are born without the physical ability to support themselves, for example. I think we as a society have an obligation to help those people. Is that news? Is that what you consider "liberal”?

I consider it moral.

[aways]

I know, let's take all of Bill Gates money and give it to the Kragen autoparts store dude. Then he can retire in luxury. I'm sick of this socialist crap. Life isn't fair. You can't make it fair by screwing the successful to reward the irresponsibile. Europe is trying that, and their economies are on the verge of implosion.

"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have .... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." -- Thomas Jefferson

[aways]

Sorry for being so insensitive, but excessive redistribution of wealth is immoral...

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Holy smokes he ADMITS IT!!! Finally a liberal who will admit it. I think I can die now. Thank you Stevepaa. Someone mark this thread...a liberal who admits he has to help the poor and downtrodden because they are genetically inferior...

In a sense you are right. I do believe that many of the "poor and downtrodden" have done probably nearly as well as they could with what each had to start with, and I think it is self evident that there are genetically superior and inferior to all of us in various ways. I view it as both my Christian duty and societal responsibility to help those less fortunate than I.

Rick,
What would be the prototypical conservative reponse to the needs of the genetically inferior?

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Moses
So it seems that you are the one who views this Kragen lifer as a failure. I'm completely comfortable with him and his choices. So you think poverty is never a reasonable choice in life? Talk to an Ascetic.

No, it was you who considered him a failure, because he could not achieve financial independence in his old age. I don't consider it a failure. I just state as a matter of fact that some people will not achieve that position in life, and I think society should recognize that and provide assistance.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by aways
Sorry for being so insensitive, but excessive redistribution of wealth is immoral...

Yes, and excessive extrapolation of a reasonable and moral position can always be expected here. Thank you.

[Jeff Higgins]

Steve, I agree whole heartedly with just about everything you say. I believe we should help those less fortunate than ourselves. I believe there is a genetic predisposition to "success" or "failure" as our society measures such today.

Sometimes I think our standards for "success" are too narrowly defined as purely financial; there are other ways to be "successful". Maybe the Kragan's guy has been happily married to the same woman his entire life, has loving well-adjusted children, maybe grandchildren. Maybe the rich "successful" guy has been divorced multiple times, his suicidal son is in rehab again, his daughter is a heroin addict turned hooker to support her habit, and his dog just bit him. Who is more "successful"? But I digress...

I think the real difference between liberals and conservatives is twofold. Number one, the nature of the people that need our help. While I believe there truly are people that do, I also understand that there are those who will take it if it's there. For no other reason than they are lazy. Not incapable, just lazy. Liberals don't seem to see these people; they assume everyone will try given the chance. Conservatives know better.

The second area of dissagreement is in who provides the help; who administers the programs. Liberals like big government to take over. It makes it easier for them because then they do not have to make any hard decisions about who gets the help. It gets them off the hook on number one above. Conservatives would prefer local control. They want to see the people that are asking for help. They want to know it is really needed. They want to weed out the lazy scammers they know are out there. They see liberals as, well, too liberal with the handouts. They want the qualifications to be a little tougher to meet. They even want the nature of the help to change; more along the lines of helping folks to help themselves, rather than no-strings-attached handouts.

I think we all want the same thing in the end. We want a society without poverty, without anyone doing without. The difference in opinion is how to achieve that. Conservatives lean towards helping our needy become more self-reliant so they can contribute like the rest of us. Liberals would like to coddle them.

[stevepaa]

What I wrote was Einesteins. A misspelling. i often do that or capitalization errors.

What I meant is that we all have traits and abilities, some have those traits which allow them to suceed greatly like your Dad. Some have traits that even with a JD lead them to failure. I have both in my family tree.

I agree that each should do as best as they can, but I am not blinded to the fact that some will never achieve self reliance.

It is not unusual for those with success traits to be conservative and think anyone can do the same. That is the jist of most of the posts here.

[Moses]

Originally posted by stevepaa
No, it was you who considered him a failure, because he could not achieve financial independence in his old age. I don't consider it a failure.

But you're the one who wants to fix it! I don't even think it's a problem!

[aways]

Originally posted by stevepaa


I agree that each should do as best as they can, but I am not blinded to the fact that some will never achieve self reliance.

It is not unusual for those with success traits to be conservative and think anyone can do the same. That is the jist of most of the posts here.

Life isn't fair. Some people are smart, some aren't, some people are born into wealthy families, some arn't, some people are physically attractive, some aren't. Most people realize that life isn't always "fair", and they do the best they can with what they have. These are usually conservatives. Liberals, on the other hand are usually utopian crybabies, who haven't lost their naive views of universial "equity". We can't make life "fair", we can only hope to make it "just". Taking person A's hard-earned wealth and giving it to person B, may be "fair", but it isn't "just", or moral. Welfare for the truly needy is a different matter, and a just and moral society should have a safety net for a select few... which shouldn't extend to guys gainfully employed at Kragens, for example.

[stevepaa]

Jeff, I am in more in tune with you. I don't want to coddle them. I know our current welfare system has promulgated a generational effect that is detrimental to those in need. I favor more involvement of Churches in the giving of aid. That's why I support my church to the level I do. I support organizations like Habitat for Humanity with my time and money.

As anyone who has given money to relatives or friends knows, some will accept it and put it to good use not expecting anything more and some will be expecting the same next year. It is just human nature. And it will take a lot of parenting to make things better.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by Moses
But you're the one who wants to fix it! I don't even think it's a problem!

Yes, I think old people without the means to have needed medications, food or shelter is a problem.

[RANDY P]

Oh yes, us poor, disadvantaged minorities. So needing of help from the enlightened and morally superior.

Yeah, just like So Cal's family my dad couldn't speak English worth a damn when he got here in 1965. No college educaton, no formal HS education.

My folks were basically retired 19 years later, thanks to hard work and the insistence on doing things alone. Tired of odd jobs and the Post Office -my dad got into real estate and property development and opened his own brokerage and did property development on his own, totally self - employed. Without welfare, begging, or any other public assistance- ever.

Both my parents were brought up poor - even by Fillipino standards. My dad got here with only of the clothes on his back. My mother put herself through Nursing school with odd jobs.

Dad is proud of the fact he did it on his own. He always says the only thing he has to do in life was to "be brown and die". Self reliance is a big thing in my house.

No one will ever give us anything, and that's out of self- respect. That's why I can never be a Liberal.

It's an insult to think we need to be taken care of...

rjp

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by aways
Welfare for the truly needy is a different matter, and a just and moral society should have a safety net for a select few... which shouldn't extend to guys gainfully employed at Kragens, for example.

Agreed. I don't support giving him aid now, I worry when he is 65-70 and may need it.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by RANDY P
Oh yes, us poor, disadvantaged minorities. So needing of help from the enlightened and morally superior.

Dad is proud of the fact he did it on his own. He always says the only thing he has to do in life was to "be brown and die". Self reliance is a big thing in my house.

No one will ever give us anything, and that's out of self- respect. That's why I can never be a Liberal.

It's an insult to think we need to be taken care of...
rjp

Never thought you did. Glad that your dad had all the success traits. No where am I presupposing that disadvantaged minorities need help. But you know no one who is really poor and needs assistance? You have never given your time at a soup kitchen?

[RANDY P]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Never thought you did. Glad that your dad had all the success traits. No where am I presupposing that disadvantaged minorities need help. But you know no one who is really poor and needs assistance? You have never given your time at a soup kitchen?

I thought we were talking about silly social policy and Liberals. This is quickly morphing into the positions that Liberals care about the disadvantaged vs. the Conservatives who dont.

It's not accurate to assume that.

To answer the question, of course. and no I wasn't trying to say you were stating a position like that. However, I still don't agree with the belief that it's a genetic "trait" which is a determining factor to success.

As for helping those who truly need it, of course- it's our responsibility to help, that isn't disputed. The various handicapped, disadvantaged, children, and the elderly are deserving of the assistance. What i'm saying is that the able-bodied thugs, drug addicts, people who kink the system and simply lazy people deserve nothing, nothing at all! especially an excuse!

rjp

[CamB]

Sorry - random replies to older posts...

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
a liberal who admits he has to help the poor and downtrodden because they are genetically inferior...

Its not genetically inferior - its inferior --> and only inasmuch as it applies to earning capacity. I don't think it is genetic - maybe behavioural, but not actually genetic. I dunno - I suppose I separate ambition, hard work and risk taking from smart, but having said that I'm only moderately ambitious, sporadically hardworking, but fortunately quite smart so I earn enough when I do work hard. Am I smart because I have good genes? Or because I had good access to quality education? And good role models?

A lot of people are inferior at making their own and/or other people's lives pleasant. I mean there's a whole philisophical discussion underlying this about what "happy" is anyway. I'm not saying people should deliberately avoid saving for retirement and sponge off the govt, but through a lack of education about the long term consequences of ones actions, there are an awful lot of people who end up in "unworkable" situations wrt retirement.

Originally posted by Howard Agency
Most successful people got where they are with hard work and good planning. It's a simple matter of spending 10% less that you earn and saving those $$. Only take money out of the fund for a crisis or to buy something that makes $$. Easy as pie, even for the Kragen guy.

Depending on where he lives, what his family looks like, and whether he can afford medical and other insurance, saving 10% is quite possibly an unattainable dream.

Originally posted by aways
Life isn't fair. Some people are smart, some aren't, some people are born into wealthy families, some arn't, some people are physically attractive, some aren't. Most people realize that life isn't always "fair", and they do the best they can with what they have. These are usually conservatives. Liberals, on the other hand are usually utopian crybabies, who haven't lost their naive views of universial "equity".

Just for the record - because being called a utopian crybaby pisses me off - I feel its only fair to point out that libertarians are at least as, if not more, naive. So there!

We can't make life "fair", we can only hope to make it "just". Taking person A's hard-earned wealth and giving it to person B, may be "fair", but it isn't "just", or moral. Welfare for the truly needy is a different matter, and a just and moral society should have a safety net for a select few... which shouldn't extend to guys gainfully employed at Kragens, for example.

So what about the corporate welfare for the corporations whose products are being sold at Kragen? You know its happening.

Anyway, who do you see as the select few?

[dd74]

Kristallnacht...