We're really not all created equal, are we?

[cantdrv55]

I know I'm going get creamed for this but there's got to be something about the superiority of certain races when it comes to performing particular tasks. I remember watching the World's Strongest Man contest and thinking, how come there are no Asians in the competition? I mean they were mostly white, from Northern Europe and way taller than the average Joe, or in this case, Nguyen.

Also, how come there are no Filipinos in the NBA? There are tall Filipinos (I'm taller than Spud Web by at least a couple of three inches). Plus, basketball is the national sport of the Philippines! I've seen some really good Filipino ball handlers but they can't hold a candle to Steve Nash.

So maybe we suck at athletics but we sure do well in school and in business. We excel in small or family owned enterprises but seem to peter out at middle-management in the corporate world. Maybe it's the glass ceiling, I don't know. But maybe, as a race, we don't take enough risks to get noticed at that level.

Anyway, I'm rambling, it's late, but I just needed a break from creating my business plan and this thought popped in my head. Let me know your thoughts on the subject though.

[jorian]

some are more equal than others....

[HardDrive]

Nothing wrong with stating the obvious.

Different races have different physical characteristics that effect their abilities at sports.

Different cultures also have their strong and weak points.

I think that asias who grew up and were educated outside the US are ingrained with a very different business culture, and that may make excelling in management roles in the US difficult. It has nothing to do with business savy, as evidenced by their success at running their own businesses.

[bryanthompson]

being born with different physical and mental characteristics doesn't mean that we aren't still born with the same inalienable rights. nobody has the right to play basketball or to become an accountant... whatever skills you choose to develop are your own business, and you are born with the right to make that choice.

[RallyJon]

Those men gifted by nature with big muscles and strong backs should work in jobs that require hard work and heavy lifting. Those men deprived of such assets by nature should still be able to contribute to society by doing what limited work they can, sitting at desks adding numbers and such.

[legion]

From each according to their ability. To each according to their need.

[Nathans_Dad]

To me the idea of "all men are created equal" doesn't mean we are interchangable or exactly alike. Obviously Bill Gates can't throw a 50 yard pass and Ben Rothlisberger probably can't program a computer.

The idea is that we are all created with an equal chance to succeed and live our lives. Now that is an ideal that we haven't yet reached, but I think we are getting better as a nation.

[cantdrv55]

If this is obvious to all, then why do we fight Affirmative Action? Is it because it's supposed to be based on the cultural and socioeconomic hurdles that have caused certain races to fall behind? Do you think that's bunk? If we accept the fact that we are not all created equal and if the premise of Affirmative Action was modified to include genetics, would you support it?

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by cantdrv55
If this is obvious to all, then why do we fight Affirmative Action? Is it because it's supposed to be based on the cultural and socioeconomic hurdles that have caused certain races to fall behind? Do you think that's bunk? If we accept the fact that we are not all created equal and if the premise of Affirmative Action was modified to include genetics, would you support it?

You want Bill Gates playing football and Big Ben runningMicrosoft? Who wins there?

[wludavid]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Obviously Bill Gates can't throw a 50 yard pass and Ben Rothlisberger probably can't program a computer.

Many would argue (and are probably right) that Bill Gates can't program a computer either.

IMO the division of labor we see among the races has less to do with genetic makeup than it does the assumptions and built-in expectations from our society. There are lots of black Americans winning sprint events in the olympics because when they were 14, their coaches decided black athletes were better at sprinting and trained them for it. Meanwhile, most of their genetic heritage came from Africa, where we now see the best long distance runners in the world.

Who's to say that some Japanese sumo wrestler couldn't compete in a strong man competition? Nothing. It's just not what the culture expects of them, so they don't train for it.

[Tobra]

Originally posted by wludavid


IMO the division of labor we see among the races has less to do with genetic makeup than it does the assumptions and built-in expectations from our society. There are lots of black Americans winning sprint events in the olympics because when they were 14, their coaches decided black athletes were better at sprinting and trained them for it. Meanwhile, most of their genetic heritage came from Africa, where we now see the best long distance runners in the world...

Hate to break it to you, but your opinion is mistaken. A track coach wants to win. Some folks are blessed with a preponderance of fast twitch muscles, some have more slow twitch muscles, and are better suited to different tasks. I have no doubt a 200 kilo sumo wrestler would do well in the strong man competition though.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by Tobra
Hate to break it to you, but your opinion is mistaken. A track coach wants to win. Some folks are blessed with a preponderance of fast twitch muscles, some have more slow twitch muscles, and are better suited to different tasks. I have no doubt a 200 kilo sumo wrestler would do well in the strong man competition though.

Well, I might have picked a poor example. At higher levels, edging out a competitor because you have more fast twitch fibers will make a difference, but the race division exists all the way down to the high school level, where middle-of-the-pack kids are running 4:30 miles and 11.5 second 100-meters. These are good, but not elite, athletes. In my personal experience, that sprinter and that miler will never switch places on the team even though they could probably run the other's event just as well. It's simply because the coach sees a black sprinter and a white miler.

[tiggy]

It's strange you should mention about track coaches.

A very well respected coach over here told me that you can't make someone fast. It is genetic. So you can't take someone who is a slow runner and make them quick.

In sports I would suggest that most great sportsman are born rather than made so I guess all men aren't created equal.

[RallyJon]

Hmm, so if some people have genetic aptitude for physical things, you don't suppose that some people might have genetic aptitude for mental things too?

Shhh, can't say that. Might hurt some kid's self esteem.

[wludavid]

Some interesting reading on race and sports:
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0657.htm

RallyJon, I don't think there's any debate that some people are born smarter than others. Whether or not intelligence has a lot of practical value is a different issue though. However, the danger (as mentioned in the above article) is when we assume that because some groups might be well-suited for athletics (blacks for instance) that they must lack in other arenas like intelligence.

[red-beard]

When TJ wrote these words in 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

He was not talking about races. He was stating that Royalty was not different or better.

Any quote can be taken out of context and time and meant to say anything. Ask my ex-wife for lots of examples...

And no, we are not created equal. Some have innate talents of intelligence, physical being, appearance, etc, or lack thereof, that cannot be wished away with words or laws.

[masraum]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Hmm, so if some people have genetic aptitude for physical things, you don't suppose that some people might have genetic aptitude for mental things too?

Shhh, can't say that. Might hurt some kid's self esteem.

Exactly, I think about this from time to time. I see that for the most part average American society doesn't seem to be as interested in education as they should be. I see people who are very capable, but because society doesn't push education like, for instance the Japanese, they end up not fulfilling their potential. At the same time I've met lots of people that seem like they don't have the ability to learn as well as others. Initially if you think about the brains of 10 different people, since the brain just sits inside the skull, they are similarly sized, and even size doesn't seem to be the determining factor of how well they work, it's hard to imagine that they shouldn't all work as well as the rest, but just like muscles, bones, skin, hair, or any other part of the body, there are physiological differences that enable some to perform certain tasks than others. Some people are blessed with "big, strong muscular" brains and some people just have "puny, wimpy, weak" brains.

No matter how many times I come to this conclusion I still want to imagine that everyone has the same potential intellectually, but I know it's not true.

And this includes the fact that some brains perform some functions well and some badly which explains the difference between people that seem like idiots, people who are artistic, people who excel at math and science, or those select few that seem to be able to do anything and everything.

[RallyJon]

My wife and I have a baby boy, and we've discussed that we'll try not to have any ego when it comes to his education. If he's smart, we push him to the limits. If he's slow, we don't pretend he's not and we educate him in the most appropriate way, moving him along at the best pace possible.

I remember growing up how many really dumb kids were mainstreamed by wishful thinking parents into classes where they were completely overwhelmed. If our society did a better job of separating kids and educating them appropriately, I think the overall self-satisfaction and productivity would go up tremendously.

But try telling most parents that junior's dumb as a post--they'll probably sue you.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Those men gifted by nature with big muscles and strong backs should work in jobs that require hard work and heavy lifting. Those men deprived of such assets by nature should still be able to contribute to society by doing what limited work they can, sitting at desks adding numbers and such.

LOL!!

I used to be an avid bodybuilder. I was built like a brick*****house. I weighed 175 lbs had a 44" chest and 28" waist. I could bench 375 lbs for 2 reps and could do 10 reps with 350 lbs. I squatted 600 lbs for sets.

I went to go help my friend. His bro-in-law was building a house and they were doing their own block work. My friends dad wieghed about 110 lbs soaking wet and was a block mason by trade. He son (also very skinny) was his helper.

My job for the day was to mix mud and throw blocks on the scaffolding.

1/2 way through the day, I was unable to lift the blocks up onto the scaffolding anymore. I was spent. I was instructed at the beginning of the day how to do it correctly but did not have the stamina to do it all day long.

Dad and skinny son never slowed down.

According to your statement skinny weak people are not cut out for manual labor. I would have agreed with you if I had not been shown up by a 110 lb. weekling.

People adapt and can condition themselves to do anything they set out to do.

If someone wants to be a basketball star and they are short, they had better learn to jump high and shoot well.

bryanthompson nailed it we all have the right to do what we want.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by RallyJon
I remember growing up how many really dumb kids were mainstreamed by wishful thinking parents into classes where they were completely overwhelmed.

Or more likely, the kids that have been pushed into the honors classes by wishfull thinking parents will slow the class down to the pace just slightly ahead of the normal classes.