Track Day gone bad!

[ckissick]

Who should be banned is the lame driver who lost control of his car on a straight, and the genious who gridded the cars right by the track.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by widebody911
It was clearly Clinton's fault.

That is what I'm talking 'bout!

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by nostatic
But who knows...seems that AWD cars get interesting once they break loose. I've seen a lot of bunged up ones at Willow, some flipping end over end after putting two off in 9 then snapping back to the infield.

Pretty common, people seem to find the ditch infield coming out of 9 at big Willow this way, I have also witnessed a WRX come into 1 Buttonwillow, counterclockwise, get two wheels off and slam into the wall on the outside of the track (near fence/grandstands). I think what is happening is the car is looking for traction, since the wheels in dirt cannot get traction the wheels still on the track hook up, launching the car in an unintended direction.

Solution?: Get off gas and drive straight, do not over compensate.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Pretty common, people seem to find the ditch infield coming out of 9 at big Willow this way, I have also witnessed a WRX come into 1 Buttonwillow, counterclockwise, get two wheels off and slam into the wall on the outside of the track (near fence/grandstands). I think what is happening is the car is looking for traction, since the wheels in dirt cannot get traction the wheels still on the track hook up, launching the car in an unintended direction.

Solution?: Get off gas and drive straight, do not over compensate.

edit: More I think about it the more I wonder who the hell allowed the cars to be out there. This scenario must have happened before, sans cars parked in infield...I blame the track organizers or administrators.

[Z-man]

A couple of points:

I have run Pocono East before. Where the EVO went off is just before the right hand kink on the front straight. It's not much of a kink, so you don't need to be that far on the edge of the track. Actually, he should have already started his approach towards the kink. And it seems to me that it was the classic "two wheels off - fight to get back on track - hook it over to the other side" move.

Apparently, many clubs stage in that same position on the Pocono East Course, when running counter-clockwise. I am sure that practice will change. I've never personally seen this, but that's what I've been told.

As for IFLYSOLO:

The Audi driver (the one who was video taking it) had no business to stop there. He should have driven past the accident, carefully through the debris on the track, and watched the next flagging station for instructions. Stopping where he did put him in more jeopardy - when something like that happens, especially in novice run groups, people's reactions are unpredictable. Though it is a flat course, there is a pretty long blind corner as you approach that straight - folks who are driving 'cone to cone' or 'turn-in to apex to exit' aren't used to looking far enough ahead on the track. A startled driver could have easily collected the Audi. The fact that he didn't pay attention to his instructor is wrong. However...

As for the instructor:

- She didn't have control of the car, or its driver. Yes, there are drivers who simply do not obey their instructor. But there are different ways of communicting - perhaps there was a communication issue between them. Sometimes instructors don't want to upset their student. But sometimes they need to be spoken to firmly. It appears that the instructor was a bit undecided (hence the moving of the steering wheel one way, and then the other). Can't do that - it's like showing a vicious dog you're afraid.
- IMHO, she had no business tugging at the steering wheel. I know some instructors do this, but I really don't like that - even if the car is going slowly - it confuses the whole "who's driving" idea - if the instructor wants to use the steering wheel, then said instructor should be sitting in the seat that's directly behind the steering wheel.

Fortunately, no one was hurt in this incident, which is amazing since the cars were in the staging line. Sheet metal can be unbent more easily than human flesh and bones can...
-Z-man.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Z-man

As for IFLYSOLO:

The Audi driver (the one who was video taking it) had no business to stop there. He should have driven past the accident, carefully through the debris on the track, and watched the next flagging station for instructions. Stopping where he did put him in more jeopardy - when something like that happens, especially in novice run groups, people's reactions are unpredictable. Though it is a flat course, there is a pretty long blind corner as you approach that straight - folks who are driving 'cone to cone' or 'turn-in to apex to exit' aren't used to looking far enough ahead on the track. A startled driver could have easily collected the Audi. The fact that he didn't pay attention to his instructor is wrong. However...

As for the instructor:

- She didn't have control of the car, or its driver. Yes, there are drivers who simply do not obey their instructor. But there are different ways of communicting - perhaps there was a communication issue between them. Sometimes instructors don't want to upset their student. But sometimes they need to be spoken to firmly. It appears that the instructor was a bit undecided (hence the moving of the steering wheel one way, and then the other). Can't do that - it's like showing a vicious dog you're afraid.
- IMHO, she had no business tugging at the steering wheel. I know some instructors do this, but I really don't like that - even if the car is going slowly - it confuses the whole "who's driving" idea - if the instructor wants to use the steering wheel, then said instructor should be sitting in the seat that's directly behind the steering wheel.

Fortunately, no one was hurt in this incident, which is amazing since the cars were in the staging line. Sheet metal can be unbent more easily than human flesh and bones can...
-Z-man.

I agree. The guy's a dweeb, the instructor can't make up her mind what to do and it's a good thing no one was standing too close to those gridded cars.

Guys, I seen some people do some (to me) incredibly stupid things and not even on race tracks but when they had the chance to make a considered choice, this ain't it. He could have just stopped on the track - then he would truly be dangerous. Only time will tell if he is a habitual loser (and maybe he is).

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I don't know anything about track etiquette, but the instructor in the video didn't seem too terribly pissed about the whole situation to me. She did try to make him turn the wheel a few times, but she turned it away from the track just as much as she turned it towards the track.

If you look at the petition and the statements after the signatures it seems this guy made a lot of enemies on an online forum who are piling on to get him banned...

Here is a post from the instructor who was in the Audi "cam car"

First of all let me introduce myself since I've never been on this forum before...I'm Michelle and I was the instructor in the Audi who was videotaping the Evo. I got in the Audi at the end of the day and had no idea that these two jokers were friends. I also didn't realize that this guy was videotaping...my mistake. But as for grabbing the wheel, I was trying to get the guy to stay on track and go to the left since the accident was on the right. Obviously he did not listen to me. Once he pulled off the track into the grass, I was instructing him to go to the right, back down pit row and get out of the way. I was not encouraging him to vidoe tape this...if you only had sound, you would know better.

As for staging the cars in this area...I have been going to Pocono for years with cars and with bikes and all the clubs stage in that area at the end of the session to prepare for the next session. I have never seen or heard an incident like this happening there or even a forecasting of a possible problem...obviously this will all be changing now. But PDA is a great organization and run good safe events. It's unfortunately but you can't predict what stupid things people are do next.

So the driver of the Audi was totally disregarding his instructor- which if you checked out his line prior to the wreck- should not be surprising...

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by VaSteve
Oh goodness:

Steve, are you a PCA or other instructor?

[Mulhollanddose]

Widebutty, now would be a good time to post your crash video...the one where you lifted mid corner and slammed that dude's Porsh.

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Steve, are you a PCA or other instructor?

No, not yet. I was just surprised you were the 4th person to sign that...

I agree the guy has no business on or near a track, however.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by VaSteve
No, not yet. I was just surprised you were the 4th person to sign that...

I agree the guy has no business on or near a track, however.

Well, I had a student like that once, wouldn't listen to anything, just ignored everything you told him, and that takes the fun out of instructing. Everyone who instructs does it because they enjoy it, I mean really, 2 students then your own track time (and taking the students out with you) sign offs for other instructors can be a lot of work, and typically only corporate events pay, so we a paying to play, and if something "happens", well that is the risk you take, no matter what seat you are in, so when a clown like that (who is reported to brag on the sites about his speeding tickets) do something that he was told over & over not to do, and puts "you" at risk, well, it pisses me off, as it is people like that run off some instructors. You see it in a whole different light when you have been in the car with a guy like that. One more thing, a guy who posted on the board where I found this, telling everyone that mr audi boy was a good guy so we shouldn't be so hard on him and then the audi boy's buddy stated that he (the buddy posting) has no interested in track events, he does his racing on the street to which I replied that I look forward seeing the crashed pix of his car on the net

[Jims5543]

My hat is off to ANYONE who gets in that right seat to instruct. You have no clue if your in for a fun day or a day of terror. I have only done 5 track days total and recognized right away that guy was out of line. Expecially once I put the sound on and saw he removed the in car sound of her protesting his actions.

If I disagree with my instructor, it does happen, if I am not in danger I will do what he says, after that session I would simply ask for a different instructor. Sometimes 2 people just do not sync.

[VaSteve]

There's another shorter clip out there of the same driver executing turns so badly, you wonder how he was able to drive to the track. Those are the kinds of videos you destroy.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Widebutty, now would be a good time to post your crash video...the one where you lifted mid corner and slammed that dude's Porsh.

It wasn't lifting that caused the problem - I have enough tread and downforce to handle that; it was my inexperience (my 2nd wheel-to-wheel race) and panic-braking that caused the crash

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Well, I had a student like that once, wouldn't listen to anything, just ignored everything you told him, and that takes the fun out of instructing. Everyone who instructs does it because they enjoy it...

It can be difficult to 'reel' a student in. Recently, I was instructing a student in the rain. For about three laps, exiting every corner, he was getting the back end really, really loose. He was simply getting on the throttle too early, too hard. I tried to explain it to him, but he simply wasn't 'getting it.' That is when the instructor has opportunities to improve their communication skills. He finally 'got it' when I said this: "If you keep doing that, you are going to hurt your car." That hit home, and he changed his driving on the next turn.

Students respond to different inputs. Some take better to visual inputs. ("Look for the exit point." "See how the car is positioned here?" ...etc) Others are kinesthetic learners. ("Can you feel how the car is handling through that turn?" "Did you feel the back end trying to come around in the corner?" ) Others learn by watching, and still others learn by doing, and so on. Some like more verbal communication, others like less. Some like step-by-step instruction from turn-in, apex, exit, while others prefer comments before or after the turn. If an instructor taps into how the student learns, and can sync up with that type of learning/teaching, then things go much easier for both the student and the instructor. That, IMHO is the most essential element of instructing - it's not how well the instructor drives, or how well he knows the track - it is how effectively he can communicate to his student.

Regarding Michelle, the instructor in the vid - had she exhausted all the methods of communication prior to grabbing the steering wheel, I can understand why she may have resorted to that action, given her frustration. But I seriously doubt that she used all the other tools in her pocket to get the guy to listen to her.

BTW: It is my understanding that the guy video taping was kicked out of an event at The Glen the Monday after the Pocono event. He and the EVO driver who wrecked are friends, and that is why he stopped and continued to 'roll tape.'

-Z.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Z-man
It can be difficult to 'reel' a student in. Recently, I was instructing a student in the rain. For about three laps, exiting every corner, he was getting the back end really, really loose. He was simply getting on the throttle too early, too hard. I tried to explain it to him, but he simply wasn't 'getting it.' That is when the instructor has opportunities to improve their communication skills. He finally 'got it' when I said this: "If you keep doing that, you are going to hurt your car." That hit home, and he changed his driving on the next turn.

Students respond to different inputs. Some take better to visual inputs. ("Look for the exit point." "See how the car is positioned here?" ...etc) Others are kinesthetic learners. ("Can you feel how the car is handling through that turn?" "Did you feel the back end trying to come around in the corner?" ) Others learn by watching, and still others learn by doing, and so on. Some like more verbal communication, others like less. Some like step-by-step instruction from turn-in, apex, exit, while others prefer comments before or after the turn. If an instructor taps into how the student learns, and can sync up with that type of learning/teaching, then things go much easier for both the student and the instructor. That, IMHO is the most essential element of instructing - it's not how well the instructor drives, or how well he knows the track - it is how effectively he can communicate to his student.

Regarding Michelle, the instructor in the vid - had she exhausted all the methods of communication prior to grabbing the steering wheel, I can understand why she may have resorted to that action, given her frustration. But I seriously doubt that she used all the other tools in her pocket to get the guy to listen to her.

BTW: It is my understanding that the guy video taping was kicked out of an event at The Glen the Monday after the Pocono event. He and the EVO driver who wrecked are friends, and that is why he stopped and continued to 'roll tape.'

-Z.

You are correct Z, and I have had pretty good luck to only have had one of those types (total idiot) of students over the years. Half of the fun is "reeling" them in, unless they are complete bone heads!! I have been known to give them just enough rope to either expand to the next level or hang them selves. I have also had to take over other instructors "OOC" (out of control) students, something about "if they are on the edge, put them with some one who went over long ago

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by widebody911
It wasn't lifting that caused the problem - I have enough tread and downforce to handle that; it was my inexperience (my 2nd wheel-to-wheel race) and panic-braking that caused the crash

Panic braking would suggest lifting and braking. No offense, we have all been there.



Just playing, Thom...I have to take any cheap shot I can, you are a liberat.

[Mulhollanddose]

Originally posted by VaSteve
There's another shorter clip out there of the same driver executing turns so badly, you wonder how he was able to drive to the track. Those are the kinds of videos you destroy.

Further proof that he is senseless.

I still blame the track and the event organizers. Cars in the infield?...I have never seen such a thing, unless they crashed or went off track.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Mulhollanddose
Further proof that he is senseless.

I still blame the track and the event organizers. Cars in the infield?...I have never seen such a thing, unless they crashed or went off track.

Actually, that's not the infield, Mul, they were parked on regular entry onto the track. However, they should not have been so close to the track.

Lemme get a track map...stay tuned for details...

This should clear things up a bit:


-Z.

[Mulhollanddose]

Z...It happened. There, in my estimation, should never be cars not racing, or cleaning up debris when cars are stopped, in the track area...They should at very least be behind some type of barrier. You expect the unexpected and always plan for the worst on a track.