Hailin Bearings SUCK SUCK SUCK! (rant time)

[M.D. Holloway]

A project came in today to help out a customer who builds trailer axles. They want to replace their current Citgo wheel bearing grease with something that is better – enter us. Taking it a step further, I also want to make sure they are packing the bearings with the appropriate volume. Over lubrication is a very bad thing for bearings.

I get the 7 different bearings they buy – about 5 million a year. They are using bearings made by Hailin of China. Immediately the hairs on the back of my neck stick up. Chinese bearings are questionable sometimes and Hailin has had a checkered past.

I call up the Hailin service house in the states and he asks me to send him an e-mail. Here is the volley of e-mails: (BTW – Timken, SKF and NTN do this for me all the time)

John,
We are currently working on a project to dispense the correct volume of grease into the following HAILIN Bearings. Please provide the volume information needed for the following bearings:
Bearing Numbers: L44649, L44643, L68149, LM67048, 15123, 14125A, 2558. Thank you.

Mike,
What is the application of those bearings?
John

John,
Wheel Bearings
Mike

Mike,
for cars? truck? or trailers?
John

John,
Trailers.
Mike

Mike,
I studied your company website; it seems that your company has nothing to do with trailer industry.
John


John,
You are correct; we manufacture lubricants for many different applications. One of our customers is using a grease that is contributing to various failures. In an attempt to help them reduce bearing failures we are offering up a better technology grease. We are also helping them with an accurate way to dispense the appropriate volume of grease into the bearing. At present, the application method is done by hand and is very uncontrolled often resulting in over lubrication. We want to help them minimize failures and provide their customers with a better performing product.
Mike


Mike,
I would like to know who the trailer axle manufacturer is. I haven't heard anything about bearing failures due to Grease issues from any of our existing customers.
John

John,
I am sorry but that is confidential. It shouldn't have anything to do with understanding the correct volume of grease to use in these bearings should it?
Mike


Mike,
sorry, can not help you in that case.
John

John,
Why? Please reconsider. It is important that I understand the correct volumes needed.
Mike


I have not heard back from him nor do I expect to. Like I said, Timken, SKF and NTN readily offer up info – these guys are *****’n me into a hole!

[VINMAN]

Thank god they have good tech support!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I feel for ya'.

Instead of simply providing a quantity this bozo looks for 10 different ways to duck accountability of any sort - not that he had any to begin with. Tools like that should be immediately fired. Period. That's one thing I can't tolerate. Acceptable responses to an honest question are "yes", "no", whatever the answer is (number/volume in this case), "I don't know but I'll try to check into it and get you an answer" or "I'm sorry I can't answer that because _______". People that answer questions with questions (especially needless ones) piss me off.

Why not try to download a spec. sheet for those models - the information you seek might be there. Or try a different technical rep.

Either way that sucks. Thanks for the tip. I'll make sure not to buy their stuff.

[RickM]

Looks to me like he's paranoid that a (potential?) competitor may be pumping him. Also, if he isn't aware of failure stats he may be attemping to trade info.

I agree that he could have gone about it in a more professional matter.

How about trying their head office or have the trailer mfr get the info from the rep they deal with?

[M.D. Holloway]

I guess as a "value added contribution", doing the leg for them would add to our credibility and likelihood of cap’n the biz.

He really would have nothing to gain or lose by sharing that info – it is like a tire company telling you the recommended amount of air to put in. No big deal but some tires take more than others.

I have a feeling that he didn’t know. The other thing is it may also be cultural. He was Chinese and it has been my experience that Chinese engineers just do not say “I don’t know”. He may have been trying to save face.

What I am very temped to do is draft up a mock article to show it to him. I do write for Manufacturing.net as a freelancer. A great article could be forged concerning “Profiles in Great and Not-So-Great Technical Services” The article would share a few examples of the good and the bad and use him as an example of bad TS. I could then say that I was going to submit this to the website and also provide copies in Chinese to his home office.

Ya, that’l show’m!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Here's a thought - could you possibly cold-call one of their sales reps saying you're trying to design a trailer axle assembly - you'd like to write a spec. indicating the correct amount of lubricating compound and could they get an answer as to how much, recommendations, etc?

The sales guy will salivate at the opportunity and either run and get the answer and spill it for you, or connect you directly to the tech. guy (hopefully it isn't the same guy you've been emailing). Play along. Ask for the sales guy's name and thank him/her once they give you what you want so they think they've done good.

I've done stuff like this in the past. . .

[Moses]

Do it up, Mike. Don't let the A-hole stonewall you.

I was thinking you might share the e-mail exchange with his immediate supervisor.

[Overpaid Slacker]

Why a mock article? Skewer this jacka$$.

JP

[widebody911]

Taking a step back - why is over-packing bad for bearings?

[nostatic]

all your bearings are belong to us

[widebody911]

Originally posted by nostatic
all your bearings are belong to us

I know the squeaky wheel gets the grease and all, but what bearing does that have on our roundtable discussion?

[Z-man]

Originally posted by nostatic
all your bearings are belong to us

Scary, but true: I was considering posting that just before I read Todd's response.

At least we know that the moderators are on the same page here....

-Z-man.

[ChrisBennet]

Any chance that the bearings are a direct copy of another bearing and you could use the grease specs from the bearing that they copied(ripped off)?
What am I saying?!! Of course a Chinese company would never copy someone else.

-Chris

[sammyg2]

it is really simple. He didn't answer your question because he did not know the answer. Just some dufus salesman trying to turn the e-mails into something he could profit from.

Over-greasing a bearing will generate heat from friction which is bad for bearings.

We have a standing order where I work, no chinese or taiwan bearings are allowed on the property under any circumstance.
We use SKF almost exclusively for ball and roller bearings, probably around $150k a year worth.

[RickM]

Just fill da bearings till the stuff comes out the sides.....sheesh

[M.D. Holloway]

Yup - some say that overgreasing accounts for 60% of all bearing failures. I don't think it is that high but it will mess you up.

Think of running in water that is ankle deep as fast as you can - no biggy. Now run in water chest deep. Great work out, you'll consume calories getting up to speed and get plenty warm doing so. Bearings are no different.

The sad thing is, the calculation is really simple provided you have the dimensions. I used to calculate the volume of a cylinder (the open space in the bearing) and the volume of the rolling elements (sphere or cylinder) and subtract them and multiply by 0.62 - which is the optimal theoretical grease volume. Now if I dont get the info from the OM I just multiply the OD and bearing width and 0.005 and it comes out pretty darn close everytime.

I think I will write and article for real...

[ChrisBennet]

Can a great grease make up for a crappy bearing (cost effectively)?
If it can, I guess it would be (sigh) good engineering.
I'm not saying I like it, but in the real world it might be the "right" thing to do.
-Chris

[M.D. Holloway]

You'd be throwing good money after bad. Buying a cheap bearing will set you bigtime for trouble. Then going back and using a great grease will help. Unfortunitly there are about 28 distinct reasons why a bearing can fail and only 4 that are associated with grease performance.

[RickM]

Mike: does this type of info help?

Other product specs as well.... http://lfk.chinanusa.com/

[M.D. Holloway]

Rick - Thanks. That was the first site I checked. Unfortunitly the numbers don't match up which makes me think that Hailin is a low cost toller for other bearing houses - this is rather common.

The customer is sending us the different bearings and we just do it the ol fashion way. It is more of an pain in the arse than anything. The real challenge will come when we fab a needle block with mulitple dispense heads coming from a positive displacement valve. But grease is easy to work with compared to other materials. It flows well and is fairly controlled. These factory fill applications are fun. Once your in, your in provided you do what you say and don't forget about them. We have been doing grease for Shamano reels and derailers for 4 years now - cool project. Had to develop a new testing protocol that mimiced the worst conditions a X-games bike gear set would see as well as the conditions a fishing reel would experience.