Schu(Michael)... tries something new

[Dottore]

Originally posted by 911 in SC
I agree. Yes, MS is held to a very high standard. After all, he has won the F1 Championship 7 times now. He is regarded as being the best driver in the world by many. Shouldn't he be held to a higher standard?

No he should be held to the same standard as other drivers. The playing field should be level. That is a very basic concept.

Of course the standard of "reasonable doubt" has no relevance here - but on that standard alone MS did not deserve the penalty (unless the stewards know something we don't from just watching the TV coverage). You cannot watch the re-runs of the incident and seriously maintain that there isn't a reasonable doubt about what occurred.

[artplumber]

From all appearances/reports, the stewards spent hours with the telemetry data before making the decision. So maybe they do know more. Notice, Schu didn't make much of a fuss.

[nostatic]

you could tell by the look on his face in the post qualifying press conference. He tried to pull a fast one. And even if he didn't, the stewards really had no choice. No one has yet pushed the boundaries on the new qualifying format...this was the first real "stretch" trying to take advantage of the format. The stewards knew if they didn't act, the next qualifying session might have multiple "incidents" of this nature. Best to nip it in the bud...MS has won enough. If he indeed just made a mistake it isn't going to cost him a contract or make him miss a payment on his yacht...

[Dottore]

Originally posted by nostatic
you could tell by the look on his face in the post qualifying press conference. He tried to pull a fast one. And even if he didn't, the stewards really had no choice. No one has yet pushed the boundaries on the new qualifying format...this was the first real "stretch" trying to take advantage of the format. The stewards knew if they didn't act, the next qualifying session might have multiple "incidents" of this nature. Best to nip it in the bud...MS has won enough. If he indeed just made a mistake it isn't going to cost him a contract or make him miss a payment on his yacht...

You could tell by the look on his face? Wow! That is really convincing.

Yes MS has won a lot - but it is precisely your attitude of "MS has won enough" that is probably at the root of this decision by the stewards. Where a rookie would have been given the benefit of the doubt - MS is penalized. Because he is so successful. Because he has no more payments to make on his yacht. Because it will not cost him his contract.

It has nothing to do with fairness, or, I suspect, due process.

[450knotOffice]

Sammmy, I agree with you completely.

What I saw was Michael getting the rear end a bit loose just a second or so before he arrived at the corner. He got squirely basically. It looked like he then flew past the apex a bit hot and tried to compensate by squaring off his turn to the right. We've all done this. We cook it in too hot, miss the apex and then are forced to try to square it off without hitting anything. He braked and turned the wheel pretty much full right and got a little puff of tire smoke immediately. The natural reaction (at least for me) is to straighten the wheel a bit to regain traction and then try it again. This is exactly what he did as seen in the in-car video. At that point he was still understeering into the wall and I think he was simply trying to prevent contact by then.

As soon as he stopped it was apparent that he wouldn't be able to pull forward so at that point he would have had to find reverse and try to back up into oncoming traffic on a tight corner that he just went wide on. No doubt there was a sense of urgency and therefore probably sloppiness trying to find reverse while he was mentally preparing for the possibility of being rear-ended. Not a calming situation, for sure. These cars are notoriously hard to get moving going forward, so I can easily see him or any other driver stalling the car in that state of mind. It happens all the time with all kinds of race cars as a matter of fact.

What really blew me away was the holier than thou attitude of some of the other drivers (and ex-drivers). Were any of these drivers in the car with MS? No. But they are the first to jump on the bandwagon and try to crucify MS as a lying cheater.

JV will never miss an opportunity to publicly blast MS and make some broad ranging assenine remark to the press. I expect that from him but it still makes me laugh. Who the heck is he? He won ONE championship with a car that was so much better than the competition in those days that practically any average F1 driver of the day would have had the same results. And he has proven that as an F1 driver, he is simply average, at best.

I especially like Kiki Rosberg's statement: "The cheapest, dirtiest thing I have ever seen in Formula One. He should leave F1 and go home. This really brings our sport down. If I was him I would retire in shame." Oh really? You'd do that, Mr. Rosberg? Sure you would. Right. That statement was a bit melodramatic, to say the least.

It was like a feeding frenzy out there and Flavio was the one who led the charge. I have to wonder why Flavio and Fernando Alonso didn't just accept it as a racing incident and set out to prove that he could out-drag MS to the first corner anyway, considering that he was to start P2 and has a history of launching very well. Alonso would have probably led the first lap anyway, regardless.

This whole thing came off to me as a bunch of crybaby prima-donna's running off to mom and dad (the FIA stewards) and complaining like little kids. I think it made them all look bad.

As for the race, now that MS was basically out of the picture, Alonso had a relatively easy time winning it, which was Flavio's intent all along, of course. I found it amazing that MS was able to climb all the way back up to 5th on that track.

Anyway, rant over.

[911 in SC]

Originally posted by DaveE
What "facts" have you stated, just two other drivers opinions. How many F1 races have they won in the last 4 years?

I stand corrected. Those are just quotes of opinions of MSs peers. Sorry. Why would their wins (or lack of) in the past 4 years have any relevance? They are his peers, plain and simple. Since MS should be held to the same standard as they are, then why shouldn't their opinions matter? Of course the media chose to print the opinions of those drivers that may not be friends with MS. They wanted to thicken the plot a little. Done every day, all over the world, especially in the world of motorsports.

I agree with artplumber and nostatic, as well as Dennis Kalma. Then again, I'm not a MS fan, so I'm certainly biased. My opinion on this can, and probably is discounted. That's fine with me.

I think the person that should have been interviewed was MS himself. Then again, we all know he would never admit to any wrong-doing.

Is it not strange how some people view him as a great role model, and others view him as a arrogant, self-indulgent, 'cheater'. The fact that he is one of the best drivers of all time isn't disputable, IMO, but his ethics on track could be.

If F1 is biased towards Renault and Michelin, then why did we have the debacle at Indy last year? If they are as biased as some think, then why didn't they cater to all of the Michelin teams and add the suggested chicane? Certainly, it would not have been fair for the Bridgestone teams to add the chicane. It would have been very dangerous for the Michelin teams to drive their own race at a slower pace. The chicane addition seemed to be the logical answer, although not fair to the Bridgestone teams, but certainly for all of the fans that put up their 'hard-earned' money for the USGP.

[nostatic]

What do you think would happen next race if the stewards hadn't done something about MS's "incident"?

[Dottore]

Originally posted by nostatic
What do you think would happen next race if the stewards hadn't done something about MS's "incident"?

Are you suggesting that in future qualifying those who have the fastest time in the first round will try to stall their cars in the middle of the track to prevent others from getting a better time? Surely you cannot be serious that THIS would become a problem!

The real point though is that MS should not have been penalized unless the stewards were 100% sure the incident was deliberate - and if they were watching the same feed I was - they just could not have been sure of this. That is my only point here.

[motion]

Nothing like kicking a guy when he's down.... my gut reaction here was to blame MS as well. But the more I think about it....... the guy is a finely honed tool. He's a machine. He rarely makes mistakes. He is very intelligent. Would he do something so stupid? No, I don't believe so. The outcome and backlash would be too predictable. There's just too much on the line to do something so stupid and obvious. He's matured A LOT in the past 10 years. He's an ambassador of the sport. I'm going to have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Dottore
Are you suggesting that in future qualifying those who have the fastest time in the first round will try to stall their cars in the middle of the track to prevent others from getting a better time? Surely you cannot be serious that THIS would become a problem!

r i g h t

no racer would ever block, or try something *creative* to gain a competitive edge...

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by motion
Nothing like kicking a guy when he's down.... my gut reaction here was to blame MS as well. But the more I think about it....... the guy is a finely honed tool. He's a machine. He rarely makes mistakes. He is very intelligent. Would he do something so stupid? No, I don't believe so. The outcome and backlash would be too predictable. There's just too much on the line to do something so stupid and obvious. He's matured A LOT in the past 10 years. He's an ambassador of the sport. I'm going to have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I agree 100% MS is not as stupid to throw away a race. 450knot office nailed it on the head. A lot of armchair drivers are trying to say they could take that turn better and its bunk.

I do not think FA is as talented a DRIVER as everyone thinks. I cannot wait until 2008 when Traction Control is removed. I think FA can drive the tecnology better than anyone out there MS included. Once they have to actually DRIVE the cars again FA will go the was of Villeneuve. A 1 championship wonder.

[911 in SC]

Originally posted by nostatic
r i g h t

no racer would ever block, or try something *creative* to gain a competitive edge...

Yeah, I've never seen that happen...

[BGCarrera32]

Originally posted by motion
....... the guy is a finely honed tool.

[911 in SC]

Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
I cannot wait until 2008 when Traction Control is removed.

I think there will be a STEEP learning curve for all of the drivers, not just FA. Personally, I think FA is on his way to his second championship. At least I hope he is...

[motion]

Originally posted by 450knotOffice
Sammmy, I agree with you completely.

What I saw was Michael getting the rear end a bit loose just a second or so before he arrived at the corner. He got squirely basically. It looked like he then flew past the apex a bit hot and tried to compensate by squaring off his turn to the right. We've all done this. We cook it in too hot, miss the apex and then are forced to try to square it off without hitting anything. He braked and turned the wheel pretty much full right and got a little puff of tire smoke immediately. The natural reaction (at least for me) is to straighten the wheel a bit to regain traction and then try it again. This is exactly what he did as seen in the in-car video. At that point he was still understeering into the wall and I think he was simply trying to prevent contact by then.

As soon as he stopped it was apparent that he wouldn't be able to pull forward so at that point he would have had to find reverse and try to back up into oncoming traffic on a tight corner that he just went wide on. No doubt there was a sense of urgency and therefore probably sloppiness trying to find reverse while he was mentally preparing for the possibility of being rear-ended. Not a calming situation, for sure. These cars are notoriously hard to get moving going forward, so I can easily see him or any other driver stalling the car in that state of mind. It happens all the time with all kinds of race cars as a matter of fact.

What really blew me away was the holier than thou attitude of some of the other drivers (and ex-drivers). Were any of these drivers in the car with MS? No. But they are the first to jump on the bandwagon and try to crucify MS as a lying cheater.

JV will never miss an opportunity to publicly blast MS and make some broad ranging assenine remark to the press. I expect that from him but it still makes me laugh. Who the heck is he? He won ONE championship with a car that was so much better than the competition in those days that practically any average F1 driver of the day would have had the same results. And he has proven that as an F1 driver, he is simply average, at best.

I especially like Kiki Rosberg's statement: "The cheapest, dirtiest thing I have ever seen in Formula One. He should leave F1 and go home. This really brings our sport down. If I was him I would retire in shame." Oh really? You'd do that, Mr. Rosberg? Sure you would. Right. That statement was a bit melodramatic, to say the least.

It was like a feeding frenzy out there and Flavio was the one who led the charge. I have to wonder why Flavio and Fernando Alonso didn't just accept it as a racing incident and set out to prove that he could out-drag MS to the first corner anyway, considering that he was to start P2 and has a history of launching very well. Alonso would have probably led the first lap anyway, regardless.

This whole thing came off to me as a bunch of crybaby prima-donna's running off to mom and dad (the FIA stewards) and complaining like little kids. I think it made them all look bad.

As for the race, now that MS was basically out of the picture, Alonso had a relatively easy time winning it, which was Flavio's intent all along, of course. I found it amazing that MS was able to climb all the way back up to 5th on that track.

Anyway, rant over.

Right on. I think you nailed it perfectly, Scott. One thing to remember about Formula 1. This sport is a high-stakes chess game. Your next move is planned not *one* move in advance, but several moves. The amount of strategy and intelligence involved with the events of qualifying and the race are mind-boggling. I don't think one can truly appreciate it without being involved directly. I can only imagine. If the MS camp actually planned this stunt, it would be stupendously stupid and desperate. Unbelievably so. Todt, Brawn and MS are the best tactictions on the grid. I really don't think they are capable of something so short-sighted and stupid. This is at the same level as someone in Nascar throwing rollbar padding out the window to force a yellow. I don't believe for one second anyone believes you can get away with that in F1.

[plain fan]

Well FA may be on his way to his last championship. Next year will be his testing grounds since he is leaving a winning product and hopping on a slow moving boat.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
IA lot of armchair drivers are trying to say they could take that turn better and its bunk.

Which armchair drivers argue that? MS could surely have taken that turn better. If he did, we wouldn't be here yapping our mouths.

Sh~t happens. I don't feel Schumacher deserved to start from pit lane, but I bet from now on qualifiers will be extra careful to not shunt the wall 15 seconds before the session ends. Paul Tracy loved to throw dirt on the track before qualifying ended and look where it got him: regular arse-kicking by young Sebastien.

[cashflyer]

For those who missed it, here is the video link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3741057503206935720&q=Schumacher...
and in slo-mo http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6348940254973305221&q=Schumacher.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by nostatic
r i g h t

no racer would ever block, or try something *creative* to gain a competitive edge...

Blocking is one thing.

Parking the car in the middle of the track quite another - and I am quite sure that THIS would not have become fashionable if MS had not been penalized. So I guess I am missing your point.

[Tervuren]

Wow, I could see a ton of Frustration in Schumacher's hand motions. He was NOT a happy camper with that.

I have to ask, was there anything signaling a Yellow when Alonso went by? I know he ended the Brazilian GP a few years ago by not having enough caution around stopped/wrecked cars. The guy is a nut.

I think they penalised him more to make an example so no one else sees the accident, and tries to do it intentionaly. A tactic that generally works, but stinks to be the person on the receiving end if they wheren't totaly guilty. Most driver's stall it whe they lose it.