Bio-fuels such a good idea?

[gaijindabe]

Off the 'net:

Soaring demand for crop-based fuel is coming at a time when world grain stocks are at their lowest level in 34 years and there are 76m more people to feed each year. “With so many distilleries being built, livestock and poultry producers fear there may not be enough corn to produce meat, milk, and eggs,” the institute says. “And, since the US supplies 70% of world corn exports, corn importing countries are worried about their supply. The broader risk is that rising food prices could spread hunger and generate political instability in low income countries that import grain such as Indonesia, Egypt, Nigeria, and Mexico,” the institute warns. “This instability could in turn disrupt global economic progress.” The institute says that alternatives to food-based fuels include raising motor fuel efficiency standards, investing in public transport, and shifting to highly efficient gas-electric hybrid plug-ins.

Makes you think... I know the Japanese are still sore at us for Nixon cutting off their soybeans..

[fastpat]

Considering the fact that it takes more BTU's of energy to produce fuel alcohol than can be gotten from it, it's high time to stop tax funded alcohol fuel production, which is nothing short of a handout to Archer-Daniels-Midland.

[gaijindabe]

Just like wind power propped up by tax credits - when it is costing us more than it is worth - it is time to come up with better ideas..

[Hugh R]

Gotta agree with Pat on this one. Without price supports and tax breaks everything I've seen says ethanol as a substitute for petroleum for fuel can't stand on its own merits. Sort of like using oil to make hydrogen, the only thing that really makes sense for a hydrogen economy is nuclear.

[jyl]

I have read a study that conclude that for corn-derived ethanol to make a meaningful dent in US oil imports would create shortages in corn used for food (food, feed, high-fructose corn syrup, corn oil, etc).

Since ethanol produced from corn is not that cheap relative to conventional oil, the effect could be simply to increase food prices while sending large tax subsidies to US agribusiness.

I'm sorry but I don't recall any of the numbers.

The issue could be with what crops are used. I recall that switchgrass was a more efficient crop. Somehow Brazil makes ethanol work, but I don't know what their economics are. Ultimately a part of the issue probably can be traced to the political power of the farming states. Considering that agriculture is barely 2% of the economy, in employment and GDP, we seem to spend a disproprotionate amount of tax dollars to subsidize it.

[oldE]

There seems to be some new information about the relative cost-effectiveness of ethanol from corn. Anyone else read this?

"Biodiesel Edges Out Ethanol http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45457
Five University of Minnesota researchers have taken a stand in the long-running debate over whether ethanol from corn requires more fossil fuel energy to produce than it delivers. Their answer? It delivers 25 percent more energy than is used (mostly fossil fuel) in producing it, though much of that 25 percent energy dividend comes from the production of an ethanol byproduct, animal feed."

Sounds great, if you're driving a horse.

Les

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I'm a biodiesel fan...or will be as soon as the warranty on my VW TDI runs out. Right now I'm only allowed B5 (5% bio, 95% petroleum diesel) under VW's warranty guidelines. Kinda pointless.

[turbo6bar]

Brazil uses sugar beet, which is a lot more efficient than corn. Thanks to the corn lobbyists, though, corn is all we've got. PP OT denizen red-beard has already presented calculations showing that biodiesel from corn would require every single acre of land in the US to make any meaningful dent in gasoline demand.

I believe hemp and sugar beet are both better suited for producing bio-fuels, but since when has the nation's policies been governed by common sense.

[TimT]

I use B100 in my F250 every chance I can. However I dont know what the bio-d is made from I dont think corn based.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

The bio-d here is soy. Soyl, get it?

[notfarnow]

Nice thing about biodiesel is it can come from many sources... waste cooking oil, fish oil from fishery operations, soy, canola etc.

It's a great way to make use of waste products, but from what I've read, growing plants for biodiesel isn't feasible from an economic or environmental perspective.

Downside to biodiesel is gelling in cold weather. Up here in Canada, you'd be hard-pressed to run more than b25 without modifying your fuel system to add some heat.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by gaijindabe
Just like wind power propped up by tax credits - when it is costing us more than it is worth - it is time to come up with better ideas..

I agree completely. We need to keep government out of the way and let market forces decide what is needed. As long as government meddles with various visible and hidden "incentives" such as the oil depletion allowance and other gifts to "big oil", the true price of petroleum isn't being paid. If the real price of a gallon of gasoline should be $5.00 then let it be $5.00, or whatever the real price should be, and that price will provide incentive enough for alternatives, without petroleum free to float up, if indeed there is a shortage, then that artificially low price is thwarting competing alternatives.

We must also deal with the possibility that there will be enough petroleum to prevent a competitive alternative fuel for several generations. And whatever else we may do, we must prevent government and vested non-governmental agencies from using scare tactics to relieve us of our private wealth and property.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
Brazil uses sugar beet, which is a lot more efficient than corn. Thanks to the corn lobbyists, though, corn is all we've got. PP OT denizen red-beard has already presented calculations showing that biodiesel from corn would require every single acre of land in the US to make any meaningful dent in gasoline demand.

I believe hemp and sugar beet are both better suited for producing bio-fuels, but since when has the nation's policies been governed by common sense.

If they are competitive without government meddling or coercion, then they'll become successful, with either of the above they'll limp along like ethanol does now.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by notfarnow
Nice thing about biodiesel is it can come from many sources... waste cooking oil, fish oil from fishery operations, soy, canola etc.

It's a great way to make use of waste products, but from what I've read, growing plants for biodiesel isn't feasible from an economic or environmental perspective.

Downside to biodiesel is gelling in cold weather. Up here in Canada, you'd be hard-pressed to run more than b25 without modifying your fuel system to add some heat.

One of the biggest obstacles for biodiesel is the fact that two handling systems for the required plant oil will have a difficult time co-existing. Food grade oil is handled with a certain required level of cleanliness that fuel grade oil does not require. Since only the food grade handling system exists today, and without deregulation to permit a fuel grade system, there is a cost disadvantage to plant oil for fuel.

[pmajka]

Maybe if we raise the price of exported corn, the Oil prices will drop.
(just fed up with gas prices)

[gaijindabe]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
Brazil uses sugar beet, which is a lot more efficient than corn. Thanks to the corn lobbyists, though, corn is all we've got. PP OT denizen red-beard has already presented calculations showing that biodiesel from corn would require every single acre of land in the US to make any meaningful dent in gasoline demand.

I believe hemp and sugar beet are both better suited for producing bio-fuels, but since when has the nation's policies been governed by common sense.

Much of Brazil also has 12 months of hot sun, heat and rain. All the the things you need to grow biomass of any sort..

[red-beard]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
Brazil uses sugar beet, which is a lot more efficient than corn. Thanks to the corn lobbyists, though, corn is all we've got. PP OT denizen red-beard has already presented calculations showing that biodiesel from corn would require every single acre of land in the US to make any meaningful dent in gasoline demand.

I believe hemp and sugar beet are both better suited for producing bio-fuels, but since when has the nation's policies been governed by common sense.

I was talking Ethanol from Corn, but you are correct. If we used every bit of land in the US that would support corn and used it for ethanol, we would cut 50% of our gasoline use, but not diesel, fuel oil, natural, coal, etc. Maybe it would add up to 5-8% of our energy need, and then we would have to import all of our food. And I do mean all!

The only viable alternative to "fossil" fuels is nuclear fission. The only way the hydrogen economy can work is with nuclear power to produce the hydrogen from water.

[sammyg2]

RB nailed it, the earth can't make enough bio to replace fossil fuels.

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by red-beard
I was talking Ethanol from Corn, but you are correct.

Doh, made a mistake there. the other knuckleheads were talking biodiesel. which as nothing to do with the original post and corn. brain fart.