America is Going to Fall

[tabs]

I have come to the realization that not only has America lost the War on Terrorism but America will fall. It is not so much that the enemy is going to lay the US low, but we ourselves are our own worst enemy. Political infighting between the 2 Parties has polarized the country to an extent that has not been seen since the Great Patriotic War of Rebelion in 1861. This polarization has rendered the US impotent in the face of our enemies.

The instrument of the fall of the US will be an eventually successfull Terrorist Attack on a fairily major scale. One has to realize that any attack would only be able to physically cause minor damage to the US, yet it would be the psychological defeatist attitude that is so prevelent that would panic the people in the US, which in turn would cause a crisis of Liquidity. Removing the lubrication that keeps the wheels of commerece greased would cause the financial system to grind to a halt, and thus cause the US to fall.

So Boyz it is time to start planning on what your gona do when your gona have to fend for yoursleves. I know I am going to stock up on arms and ammuntion, so that when that dreaded day dawns I'll be able to stick a gun in my neighbors face and take his Food and Gasoline.

[Milu]

Mormons keep a years supply of everything so an address list, a map and the 45 to convince them to share would be useful.

[Halm]

Originally posted by tabs
... but we ourselves are our own worst enemy. Political infighting between the 2 Parties has polarized the country to an extent that has not been seen since the Great Patriotic War of Rebelion in 1861. This polarization has rendered the US impotent in the face of our enemies.

I could not agree more. And it can not be better illustrated than the extremist attitiudes as found here on OT. Some way, some how this must change.

[widgeon13]

I respectfully disagree with your scenario. History has proven that we do not fold our tents and run for cover when the shlt hits the fan, on the contrary, we tend to become more cohesive and attack the problems while putting aside our differences. The bigger the challenge, the more aggressive our response.

I had the opportunity to spend some time at WTC site shortly after 9/11 and there were no blue states or red states, no Dems or Reps, no libs or cons; just Americans. We put aside the political BS of trying to get someone elected and committed to getting the job done. What we see and hear in the media is there to sell papers and increase viewership as well as stir the shlt in the pot.

I do not see America falling, perhaps taking a punch but we have done that many times before and come back stronger and with greater resolve.

I respect your opinion and hope you have the same appreciation for my position. I don't want to start the usual PP debate on this just giving another perspective.

[Rodeo]

I'm not quite so pessimistic either.

We have challenges facing our country, no doubt about it. But America has overcome greater challenges.

Superior military and economic strength are important, but what ultimately prevails in cultural conflicts is superior culture. And that's ultimately what this "war on terror" is, a cultural war. Comparing our open, modern and free society with 9th century fundamental Islam makes it clear which side will ultimately prevail.

As long as we don't abandon freedom, personal dignity, and the rule of law, we will win. That's not all it takes, of course, but it is a vital part.

In my mind, the divide in this nation, and here on OT, centers abound an understandable but flawed instinct to fight like them, to abandon the qualities that make us superior in the name of supposed "strength."

[jyl]

tabs, I don't follow your reasoning.

I agree there is a lot of political infighting. I disagree the infighting has had any impact on US policy/action as relevant to defense/security. Because, regardless of infighting, actual power has been firmly held by one party and that party has rigidly followed its leader.

The Republican party has controlled White House and Congress, and has effectively made all the decisions for the past six years. The President has gotten his way on any and every material defense/security issue. Every action he's wanted, every budget dollar he's wanted. Can you name a significant defense/security initiative of his that has actually been blocked by "infighting"?

So if you think the US has been rendered impotent vs its enemies, it can't be attributed to political infighting, because that infighting has had no real impact.

I also disagree that the US is in fact impotent. The US is experiencing the end of a period in which it was the sole and unquestioned global power: Russia was in economic ruins, China was still a third-world country, the oil producers were helplessly peddling $20/bbl oil, US economic growth was the envy of the world. Things are different now. So instead of being the 250lb strongman in a crowd of 98lb weakings, the US is a 200lb man in a crowd of 160lb men. Feels like a comedown, but maybe its just getting back towards balance.

Finally, as you point out terrorist attacks produce only limited physical damage. The attendant psychological damage is basically in our own control. Other countries have adjusted to continual terrorist attacks, with manageable impact on their economic or psychological vitality. London during the IRA campaign, Israel for many decades, are examples. The US is still in the early stages of adjusting to terrorism. Psychologically we're like the little boy who cries all day over his first bad scrape; give him some more action and he'll toughen up.

The main danger, IMO, is if terrorists begin to use weapons of a completely different level. Instead of explosive in duffel bags, nuclear weapons in vans.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Sadly, I think America is far too passive and apathetic to mount any sort of meaningful rebellion or take any action that would result in the collapse of government. Yes, a major terrorist attack (like with a nuclear weapon) would be tragic and shatter a lot of our way of life, but I think most people are just too damn lazy/stupid to put a response into action. It'd be like post-9/11 when the best people could do was to wave a bunch of little flags out the windows of their H2s and chat over mocha lattes about how they were going to pick up some gas masks.

We have been conditioned to be dependent on government for decades and unfortunately we now are - to the point we'll never be capable of serious action in the face of adversity. There are some exceptions, but largely I think it'd be lip service and any attempts at "looking out for onesself" would be squashed with the heavy hand of dozens or hundreds of cops, government agents, National Guard troops, or whatever kicking your door down and dragging your ass off to secret prison before it'd be given the chance to "send the wrong message".

Just keep your head in the sand and keep repeating "we're safer thanks to the Patriot Act. . . we're safer thanks to George Bush" the way they want you to. Nothing to see here. . .

[Jeff Higgins]

I see part of both points of view playing out. Any major attack would certainly pull us together in the short term. Once the mess is cleaned up, however, the finger pointing will start. The parties and pundits will seek to lay blame at the feet of their opponents. The real enemy that perpetrated the attack will become a secondary consideration. Kind of like right now.

I'm too young know what the political climate during, and then following, WWII was like. Were the political parties blaming each other for the war? Were they blaming each other for allowing Germany to rebuild itself into a threat so soon after the last war? Were they blaming each other for being asleep at the wheel concerning Japan? I wasn't around then, but somehow I don't think so. Times have changed.

[Rodeo]

The political discourse in America is tame now compared to many periods in our past.

We'll be fine, once we get some new leadership

[einreb]

Without fuel they were nothing. They built a house of straw. The thundering machines sputtered and stopped. Their leaders talked and talked and talked. But nothing could stem the avalanche. Their world crumbled. The cities exploded. A whirlwind of looting, a firestorm of fear. Men began to feed on men.

On the roads it was a white line nightmare. Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice. And in this maelstrom of decay, ordinary men were battered and smashed.

Except for Tabs. Armed with an AK-47, and a long nose full of silver. He lived in the best houses after the fall, drank the best champagne, and bought women for cans of soup.

No one could stop him, and he was a small timer! The really big operators, they took over whole towns, and you don't want to know what happened there. Tabs? he was happy living in his huge home, stockpiled like Omegaman, shooting at the occasional vagrant who strayed on to his property.

Life was hard, but good compared to working for some douchebag 5 days a week. Money was worthless, you either had something to trade, or you were something to trade.

Life was hard, but good.

[widgeon13]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
It'd be like post-9/11 when the best people could do was to wave a bunch of little flags out the windows of their H2s and chat over mocha lattes about how they were going to pick up some gas masks.

We have been conditioned to be dependent on government for decades and unfortunately we now are - to the point we'll never be capable of serious action in the face of adversity. There are some exceptions, but largely I think it'd be lip service and any attempts at "looking out for onesself" would be squashed with the heavy hand of dozens or hundreds of cops, government agents, National Guard troops, or whatever kicking your door down and dragging your ass off to secret prison before it'd be given the chance to "send the wrong message".

Just keep your head in the sand and keep repeating "we're safer thanks to the Patriot Act. . . we're safer thanks to George Bush" the way they want you to. Nothing to see here. . .

I believe you have spent too much time in the sun far removed from reality or perhaps just too much CA goverment hokus pokus. Spend some time in a small community where goverment is the people and fire and ems services are done by volunteers. The grassroots work is done by volunteers not big goverment.

[jyl]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
I see part of both points of view playing out. Any major attack would certainly pull us together in the short term. Once the mess is cleaned up, however, the finger pointing will start. The parties and pundits will seek to lay blame at the feet of their opponents. The real enemy that perpetrated the attack will become a secondary consideration. Kind of like right now.

I'm too young know what the political climate during, and then following, WWII was like. Were the political parties blaming each other for the war? Were they blaming each other for allowing Germany to rebuild itself into a threat so soon after the last war? Were they blaming each other for being asleep at the wheel concerning Japan? I wasn't around then, but somehow I don't think so. Times have changed.

Should do some historical research before concluding this.

I think the political infighting was just as bad in the "old days", it's simply been erased by our rose-colored glasses. Recall there was a very strong isolationist movement pre-WW2, Roosevelt was pillored for trying to drag America into another bloody war in Europe, even Lend-Lease was heavily opposed.

Have not read much about after WW2, but it hardly compares to the current situation - if all the terrorists and rogue state governments line up on a battleship and sign unconditional surrenders (or commit suicide in their bunkers), then maybe you could draw a parallel . . .

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by jyl
Should do some historical research before concluding this.

I think the political infighting was just as bad in the "old days", it's simply been erased by our rose-colored glasses. Recall there was a very strong isolationist movement pre-WW2, Roosevelt was pillored for trying to drag America into another bloody war in Europe, even Lend-Lease was heavily opposed.

Have not read much about after WW2, but it hardly compares to the current situation - if all the terrorists and rogue state governments line up on a battleship and sign unconditional surrenders (or commit suicide in their bunkers), then maybe you could draw a parallel . . .

Concluding what? Drawing what parallels? I was asking for insight from some one who could offer some. I was asking questions. I was wondering what it was like post-WWII and said right away that I am too young to know.

My older relatives and acquaintances that lived through those times tell me there was none of the post-action political infighting we see today. I was attempting to draw out anyone here, on the board, who was around at that time out to see what they thought. So please don't tell me to "do some historical research before concluding this"; that is exactly what I was trying to do.

[Rodeo]

Maybe others will chime in, but my sense is that after Pearl Harbor, America was united behind the war effort. People were asked to sacrifice, men of all ages either signed up or were drafted, and the populace bought war bonds, conserved, and prayed for the safe return of their loved ones.

Compare that to today ... we have essentially an Army for hire, culled generally from the lowest ranks of society, our government has not asked for any sacrifices, our president and Congress seem concerned only with further and deeper tax cuts, and we have borrowed the ENTIRE cost of war from China.

In WWII, we had leadership, America was unified under that leadership and against a common enemy that was fought conventionally, on the battlefield by uniformed soldiers. Today we have a bunch of neocons that have essentially looted the treasury and made all their friends rich. And we have an unconventional conflict that requires not WWII-like battle plans, but a strategy exponentially more complex and subtle.

Our leaders did not prepare America for this (because they had no idea it was coming) and are ill-equipped to either design or implement the strategy necessary to win.

[speeder]

Imagine that the U.S. had attacked China instead of Japan after Pearl Harbor, and a bunch of lying members of a fringe political group were the only ones w/ the President's ear. Imagine that the VP at the time was thought to actually be formulating foreign policy, and he and his friends from civilian life were directly connected financially to attacking China under false pretenses. Imagine that the President back then completely depleted the national treasury and sent us on a path to economic ruin because of this fraudulent and strategically insane military action. And the SOD would not resign. And he would not fire him.

Now you have your WW2 analogy. Of course it's ridiculous. Because there is no analogy. Absolutely none. There is a lot more analogy between our current situation and the winner of a "worst fake Kurt Vonnegut novel" writing contest. You know, where the impossible is normal; like all of the leaders of the USA being former oil industry executives who avoided military service during Viet Nam and used a tragic terrorist attack on US soil to start a fraudulent and disastrous war. And the VP's last job was head of a company that is making billions from the inane war. Wild, wacky stuff that makes prognosticators like Tabs and Ron seem level-headed in comparison. Stock up on guns and bullets and move to Idaho stuff.

There would have been rioting in the streets of DC before people would sacrifice their sons and treasury to that in 1941. People today are incredibly passive, practically asleep at the wheel with their flat-screen TVs and all of the bourgeois rewards of a hot economy from the last few decades. That will be the doom of the USA if anything, not the political infighting. I'd like to see a lot more infighting, impeachment would be a start and show the world some good faith on the part of the U.S.A. Prominent neocon architects of the Iraq invasion locked in Gitmo would pave the way for a lot of world peace.

[beepbeep]

Ahh...that pesky sky is falling again.

I don't think America is going to fall. If we take off the whackoid eyeglasses and take a look in more sensible manner, here is what can happend:

Slight production downturn, higher fuel prices, RE market coming down (not crashing, just adjusting to reality), interest rates going up, dollar value depletion due to foreign (un)balance, standard of living going down...

That will hold up for few years, then people will respond to it, get down to bussines with (hopefully) new leaders and everything will be relativly back to normal after 10-15 years except being the economic superpower. That part might be hard as new players are emerging.

Mad Max scenario is unlikely. I don't think that even terrorists are stupid enough to try a WMA strike as that would trigger some very very unpleasent paving of ME region which would hit both those who were guilty and those who were not.

[cmccuist]

Originally posted by Milu
Mormons keep a years supply of everything so an address list, a map and the 45 to convince them to share would be useful.

Save your ammo. We will gladly share with you. The years supply is just to tide a family over until things improve. It's not necessarily meant to go isolationist from the community.

[Rodeo]

Here's a vote for speeder. I believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Fieth and Rice have done immeasurable damage to America. I believe that 50% of the problem is incompetence and stupidity and the the other 50% is greed, for both money and power.

I would not throw them in Gitmo, just because I believe in the rule of law. Gitmo will always hold a shameful place in American history and should be shut down.

But I would bring them to trial to make them pay for their crimes.

[tabs]

The last time America experienced such political infighting was right before the Great Patriotic War of Rebellion in 1860. Neither political faction is working with nor listening to each other. The great urban populations have been trained to rely upon Government services and without them all would fall into chaos re Katrina, LA riots 1992. The great majority of the Population of America has been bought off with the surban lifestyle of the SUV in every garage and a big screen TV with the Super Bowl turned on. America has lost the will to endure any hardships and has become a culture of instant gratification where world problems are supposed to be resolved within the hour format of the hour long TV Drama.

No the opening chapter of the Fall of America has allready been written with the fall of the WTC. The US government has fallen into ineptitude where all levels of Government have failed in the War against Iraq, from the Administrations faulty intelligence and unrealistic appraisal of the situation, to the lack of Military prepardiness for handling the victory to the Inteligence Agencys aquiesence to political pressure to come up with the right story.

Further Americas abilty to influence world events has diminished when it can't dissuade 3rd rate nations such as Iran and N Korea from destabilizing world peace with threats of war.

Finally comes Karina and shows up the Federal ans States governments inability to deal with civil emergencies.

No folks it isn't going to be civil unrest tht undoes America it is going to be the passivity of the SUV culture not believing that there are consequences for that passivity, the failure of the government to be able act decisivily due to the internal bickering of the political parties and the inabilty of the government ot act decisivily due to Bureaucartic proceedure and culture.

On a further note it will be a FINANCIAL CRISIS that brings America down, where an act of say a Dirty Bomb explodes in a large city. The people will cry out that the American Government CAN NOT protect us, people will stop spending, and there will be a rush on the Bank to get whatever assets they can get. This will dry up the life blood lubrication of the financial system known as cash flow. The economy will grind to a halt, jobs will be lost, bills will go unpaid, houses forclosed on an unprecedented scale which will overwhelm both public and private instutions. The government allready inept at handling crisis will lose cohesion and it will become the land where lawlessness reigns.

[jyl]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Concluding what? Drawing what parallels? I was asking for insight from some one who could offer some. I was asking questions. I was wondering what it was like post-WWII and said right away that I am too young to know.

My older relatives and acquaintances that lived through those times tell me there was none of the post-action political infighting we see today. I was attempting to draw out anyone here, on the board, who was around at that time out to see what they thought. So please don't tell me to "do some historical research before concluding this"; that is exactly what I was trying to do.

Wasn't a rebuke, was a suggestion.

Not a lot of 80 y/o's on OT so doubt can do much historical research here. Probably have to resort to history books.

The other point was that we are not in a "post-action" period like after WW2 was done and won. The war in Iraq is not done and won, the war on terrorism is in its early days. So not an analogous situation.