Forming my own government

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Rodeo

Maybe anybody that lives further away than the post office where you pick up your government check automatically becomes an alien in Pat's world

Post office?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by JanusCole
Pat, ignore the haters. I like your plan. I doubt you'll get 100% independent from the feds but it is a worthy effort, nonetheless.

So may I ask a few questions about your government?

1) How are you handling basic services like garbage and roads?

I already have a private garbage service, one of three in the area, so that's how I'd recommend others handle the service. Government garbage pickup or worse, government contracted garbage pickup are almost always "sweetheart" deals for the few at the expense of the many.

Roads are pretty easy as well. Most roads are built by the private sector now, but with "special" non-competitive bidding. Eliminate the government middleman, and the attendant expense (contrary to some folks, government is hardly a low cost operation, think of the least efficient charities and you'll be close), and pay for the roads directly. There's probably several ways to do this, in the early days of the country, private toll roads were common. It was the corporate world that wanted tax subsidized roads built, in order to transfer costs.

As I said earlier, I have had good experiences with a condo association that handled daily services better than the local government. Well, at least the services were better - the association was not.

No group is perfect, downsizing to a local "co-operative", or merely direct cooperation with neighbors is a good idea under any circumstances.

2) Do you and your neighbors have a formalized structure? Do you make decisions by consensus or majority vote? Seems like a small thing but it makes a big difference.

No, I don't live in a "community" in that sense, if the guy next door decides to build a pig farm, he can do that. I can plant more trees, or cut down all of them on my property. We chose this location because of the lack of any restrictions.

3) How do you and the neighbors handle disputes? Do you have a mutually binding system or do you go directly to firearms (not that there's anything wrong with that )?

We use common law, and know that it's best to resolve things without calling for government assistance. For example, we had a young guy that rips by the neighbors house, who has two young girls and a couple of dogs, doing about 60 in a 35 zone. We handled that by talking with him. Of course, the knowledge that ultimately there's a price to pay for continuing his endangering behavior probably helped.

4) How connected are you to the feds and do you have plans or ideas for improving your independence? For instance, do you still have to participate in green back commerce like buying food and clothing? Being truly self-sufficient would be a giant PITA - but it might be worth the effort to break free ofthe feds. May I ask how far you've gone down that path?

If you mean by the elimination of using federal currency, then the answer is no. I know people that do that (no, not locally), trading in gold and silver being their preferred methods, but that's a bit cumbersome. I suppose if my house were totally off grid, i.e. I developed the water resource I have here for drinking, generated my own power, and so forth it'd be much easier to do that. I would like to see a return to real, non-inflatable money instead of the funny money printed by the feds now, but that can't be done unless federal power is reduced.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by CS119laCoS
But what happens when your neighbor builds part of his house on your land, and is wrong but won't back down?

The same thing that happens now, I own that building and since it's mine, I do what I want with it. Almost no one spends money to build something on another's land, in fact most smart people don't build close to the property line if they have room.

Or someone borrows $10K for you then absolutely refuses to pay you back?

To prevent that situation from happening, I get a signed contract from them first, wherein they agree to let any bounty hunter I care to name fetch them up to me. IOW, I don't lend money.

Or someone rapes a woman?

The way it was dealt with before we foolishly hired government to do it in our stead.

Or robs you?

They get what's coming to them. Years toiling in my fields, at hard labor; and that's if they don't die while trying to commit the crime in the first place.

Have you read the study about how the law was applied in many western mining towns in the 19th century? Those communites were quite civil. And very safe.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by fastpat
Have you read the study about how the law was applied in many western mining towns in the 19th century? Those communites were quite civil. And very safe.

Oh please! those towns were safe because there were lawmen such as Matt Dillon and his faithful deputy, Festus, keeping everyone safe.



Git yer facks strate, ol' timer!

Randy

[M.D. Holloway]

except that many folks do not live in areas that could support such a lifestyle, in fact many people do not want to live in a place like you discribe - sounds more like the wild west. There is a reason way that life style and form of gov didn't last very long. You are very far removed from the mainstream thought pattern. People do not want what you are offering. I'm not saying your idea is foul, but it has no legs because you seem to ignore a few basic facts about human nature and the American idea namely that:
1) People really don't want to make too many choices
2) People don't want to work beyound a comfort level and most Americans are pretty comfy.
3) Most people would rather follow than lead or become independent
4) People want security, they do not want to take matters into their own hands

Our gov system is far from perfect but it works for our culture better than anything else.

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by CS119laCoS
**Then what?

Depends.

If it's the 1st of the month, you go pick up your government check, and deal with the rape thing later

Of, I'll stop.

Pat's off his rocker, but I'll give him this. He doesn't even pretend to have answers to this question or to tens of thousands of others.

He wants to tear down, and isn't the least bit interested in building anything to take its place.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Depends.

If it's the 1st of the month, you go pick up your government check, and deal with the rape thing later

Of, I'll stop.

Pat's off his rocker, but I'll give him this. He doesn't even pretend to have answers to this question or to tens of thousands of others.

He wants to tear down, and isn't the least bit interested in building anything to take its place.

No, the issue is that you want me to supply you with answers instead of thinking of them for yourself. No wonder you're a statist.

The reason I don't supply answers is that if I did, then I'd be your government. That you can't recognize that is very sad, but true nonetheless.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by CS119laCoS
Let's just focus on the rape one for now.

Your answer is "The way it was dealt with before we foolishly hired government to do it in our stead."

I'm not sure how that was, but from my many hours spent watching TV as a youth, I assume you round up a posse with a bunch of shotguns and go to the guy's house - the guy that a woman accused of raping her the night before.

When your posse gets there, he says they had sex, but it was totally consensual, and she's just mad at him and trying to "get even" because she found out he had been seeing another girl.

Then what?

You must remember that when, not if, the populace abandons government it will be when it's decided to assume responsibility for it's own safety. That will be achieved when one or both of two things occur. First, and most important, is that every woman be capable of defending herself, either with marshal arts or with a firearm; or when woman insist that the men in their lives learn how to defend their families and then do it.

Rape was extremely rare in the 19th century except during government wars, (when US government troops frequently rape). Ever wonder why?

And last, your notion that the government can see justice done more effectively would be laughable were it not so often seriously wrong and extrememly dangerous. The Duke non-Rape Case is a prime example.

[Rodeo]

I don't want to live in Patland, thank you very much.

For one thing, I'm too old to learn "marshal arts." Or even martial arts

Another thing, I don't have time to solve the 50 rapes that happened last month in my relatively small city ... and then I have to deal with the jaywalkers too

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I don't want to live in Patland, thank you very much.

For one thing, I'm too old to learn "marshal arts." Or even martial arts

Another thing, I don't have time to solve the 50 rapes that happened last month in my relatively small city ... and then I have to deal with the jaywalkers too

You don't have to do any of those things. Go watch television, the government will handle everything for you.

Could I suggest you watch reruns of "The FBI" and "Dragnet", you'll love how effective those government heroes are.

[Rodeo]

Yea, and my car isn't running as well as I'd like either ... taking it to the junkyard tomorrow.

[Rodeo]

I mean, if it's not absoutely perfect, I should throw it away, right? Who needs a car if the passanger window won't go down and the sunroof leaks? Junkyard baby!

How will I get to work? Who knows, but I gotta get rid of that car!

[Wrecked944]

My goodness, this thread is filled with a bunch of bellyachers!

Pat is challenging you to think outside the "government box" and all you can do is whine, whine, whine. Is it possible that reducing your dependence on the federal teat is a worthy endeaver? Can someone please take five seconds to consider the merits of reduced government dependence rather just b*tch, b*tch, b*tch?

Hey Pat, keep up the good work and thanks for answering my questions.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Yea, and my car isn't running as well as I'd like either ... taking it to the junkyard tomorrow.

Your fine car is morphing into a hearse, someone in a strange uniform has pushed you into the back, and it's running extremely well.

[Rodeo]

I don't need the hearse either! If it's not absolutely perfect, I will not get in it! My family can drag my sorry ass to the graveyard on foot

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I don't need the hearse either! If it's not absolutely perfect, I will not get in it! My family can drag my sorry ass to the graveyard on foot

Of course, you don't think you need it, but you want it dearly. Indeed, you're begging for it. You're government knows what's best, they'll take of you, here let them help you in, don't mind those large men with MP-5's trained on you, they're for your own protection.

[Rodeo]

You sound like George Bush ... either I'm with your plan or I'm for intrusive, overbearing goverment.

I don't like government, you know that by now. But I really don't like no government whatsoever. Neither would you, after the 1st of the month with no check in the mailbox.

Make some common sense proposals to reduce government intrusiveness, I'm with you.

[M.D. Holloway]

fastscat - you remind me if Gribble on King of the Hill.

The gov is what it is cuz that’s what the people want. The majority of the people. You are the minority.

You think there is some grand scheme or conspiracy at hand. News flash - there isn't.

(and I can hear Gribbles voice saying "that’s what they want you to think!")

Government only does and is according to the peoples wishes. You think that big business has this great influence and maybe on a small part, it may but at the end of the day, the politicians still have to answer to the people and the media. They will only play to big biz just enough for funding and that’s it.

Face it dude, people are pretty freaking happy. If they weren’t you would see a lot more upheaval than you do. It just is not happening.

Best if you just pack up your stuff, move to Montana with the rest ofthe hillbillies with your wacky gov hating notions, and leave the comfortable burbs to us 1%rs. The gov will watch after us and keep us warm, well fed and clean. Sorta like a nice soft blanky, a fresh diaper and a warm titmilk.

[Wrecked944]

Originally posted by LubeMaster77
...Best if you just pack up your stuff, move to Montana with the rest ofthe hillbillies with your wacky gov hating notions, and leave the comfortable burbs to us 1%rs...

News Flash: It appears that is pretty much what Pat did - except it was South Carolina instead of Montana. He isn't telling you or me to join his movement. He is just telling us what he is doing and what he thinks of it and government in general.

Man, I really am amazed at how much heat poor Pat is taking for this. It is worse than what the 944 BBS does to newbies who ask "How do I put a turbo in my 944 N/A?".

So what if he isn't 100% free of the feds? So what if he doesn't have an answer to every freaking possible scenario? I probably like Uncle Sam more than most of you. In fact, I am one of those few people who is actually proud to pay taxes to the greatest experiment in self government in world history. But I still respect Pat's experiment in secession. I actually think it is pretty consistent with core American values going back to the Founding Fathers. And let's not forget: He isn't hurting anyone, right? Jeez Loiuse, cut a tiny bit of slack for the guy.

Oh, and let's talk about government checks. IMO, there is nothing hypocritical about Pat taking his retirement checks. If I understand correctly, he signed a binding contract with Uncle Sam in which he pledged to serve for a period of time and receive payment in return. So long as Pat held up his part of the deal, I see no reason why he should not expect Uncle Sam to do the same. A contract is a contract no matter who the parties are. You are welcome to loathe the other party or even deny its authority over you - but that does not absolve him/her/it of the responsibility of meeting the conditions set out in the contract. For Pat to refuse Uncle Sam's checks just because he dislikes Sam would be like Joeaksa refusing Shaun84Targa's check just because they disagree. Capiche?

[Rodeo]

Not the same. Fact is, I pay Pat's retirement, so do you.

As Pat states in his sig, they take that money forcefully from me. Then they give it to him. He's cool with that. As long as they don't take HIS money and give it me. That's what pisses him off