Thanks for the pity rub. me no unnerstand anyting!

EDIT: Sherwood, that's another great example. Still being characterized as the "noble savage", or the alcoholic war-crying dolt.

Perfect. I won't bite. You want to converse, email me.

I have to laugh about the minorities in the medical professions comment. My daughter is currently trying to get into medical school. Her scores and grades are very good and she has competed for and selected for a full ride scholarship to the school of her choice, but she has not been admitted to any yet. It is incredibly competitive and many states will not even allow out-of-state students to apply. On the other hand, she has been bombarded by schools that will admit her...with may funding her expenses...because she put on a survey once that she was part native American. All she needs to do is provide paperwork proving she has membership in a federally recognized tribe. My wife and I have a substantial amount of native American in our ancestry, but because our ancestors left the reservation, went to work, and assimilated...we have have no tribal affiliation...she is not eligible for any of these programs. It must be nice to not have to compete equally with other folks for what you want.

Fint, your situation is exactly the problem.

Instead of encouraging fairness and equality, affirmative action programs actually foster resentment and hatred from those who do not get the special consideration because they happen to be the wrong color.

I cannot fathom how people think racism is the correct solution to prior racism.

Sorry Rick, I don't see how resentment = unsuccessful program. If fint had chosen to maintain ties with his tribe (?) his daughter could have entered school with that advantage. Since I am unaware of how that particular program works, it would be my surmise that the program is designed to help people with a close connection to the tribe (ie willing to go back to work to keep the tribe healthy - probably on a reservation). This is no different that fed programs (national health service) which pay off med school for those willing to work in underserved areas.

BTW Fint, my comment was how the public's view is skewed vs the reality of the situation (as in who are practicing physicians not applicants to schools), and was an example chosen that Rick can relate to directly. Furthermore, since there are an excess of asian males in the profession, it is actually a detriment to list asian/pacific islander on an application (more so than causasian male) - ask me how I know.

Those with native american blood are everywhere. Most do not even know they have it. Most natives assimilated many years ago. Only the least industrious stayed on the reservation. They are now rewarded for doing exactly the opposite of what we asked. This med school program is like most all the federal programs for indians. If you do not have proof that you are a member of a tribe from the federal government...you do not qualify for any of the federal affirmative action programs. Other federal affirmative action programs... if you are black or hispanic...all you have to do is say so to qualify, but not native american. Seems odd that they do not have to prove what tribe their ancestors came from).
Each tribe decides who can be a member...so it is not necessarily fair. For some...all you have to do is ask...for others (especially those with money, land, casinos), it is almost impossible. It is also a valuable perk out west where there most jobs with the Department of the Interior (a huge employer, especially in rural areas) must hire native americans (only with tribal papers)
My point is...that my daughter does not deserve any special consideration because of race or ancestry. If she was accepted through that program, she would be getting an unfair advantage over other kids that scored higher on the tests and had higher GPAs than she did. It takes those slots out of the competition unfairly. Frankly, when I go to a doctor, I want them to have gone to medical school because they ere the best possible candidate, not because they were of a specific color or race.
You are correct, they hope the doctors will practice medicine in areas where there are a lot of native americans. But it is much different than paying the costs of a person who is willing to practice in a specific area where you need them. That is just business. Diverting scarce school slots by race keeps the most qualified from ever attending med school. How would you feel is there was a program just for those who could prove themselves 100% white, ancestors crossed on the Mayflower, etc? Suppose my family had kept affiliation with a tribe. Then my relatively wealthy, blond-haired, blue eyed daughter would be getting into med school (like many others) based on reparations (of a sort) for discrimination or suffering she has never experienced.

I agree, it is even tougher for asian american males.

Do you think it is more likely that you will get someone to commit to an underserved area just because they get their med schl for free vs if they are from the underserved area? And not just for the standard 5yr (or whatever it is) term that comes with the NHS program, but for life?

Maybe your proposition for your daughter to get in under NA guise, is just the reason why one must have tribal papers, vs just being hispanic, black etc. There are plenty of instances when those appellations have been abused (& documented so). One could always take the Hawaiin approach - more than 1/8 (IIRC) to get into King Kamehameha high school.

Further, there is a "floor" for all persons in med schl to pass, so that all should be competent if they graduate. And BTW, the smartest are not usually the best MD's.

AffirmAct is an imperfect soln in an imperfect world. To use a medical aphorism "amiodarone for atrial fibrillation is a dirty drug for a dirty problem."

I would say that it only make the problem worse.

I guess that would depend on what the goal of the program is. If the goal is to artificially install minorities into positions of power or success in our country and deny that same ability to white people (admittedly a small percentage of white people), then the program is a success.

If, however, the idea is to actually try and heal the wounds of racism and truly move towards an equal society where each person is judged on their merits and nothing else, the program is a dismal failure.

To illustrate my point from our profession, Art, my medical school had a special program from minority students who did not gain entrance to med school through the usual channels. These students often had mediocre grades in college or poor MCAT scores. They were placed on a special track which extended their classroom years from 2 to 3. They took the same courses as the rest of us, just took less at a time. About 80% still flunked out. Not only that, the 20% who made it were universally poor students and likely would become poor doctors.

Does that do our country any good? Is it moral or right to foist a poor doctor on the populace just because someone decided we needed more minority doctors? What about the young children who look up to that doctor? Is it good for them to have a role model who almost flunked out of medical school and is now a danger to the population? Of course, I'm sure there are success stories too, I just didn't see it at my school.