Would You Geek Out A Prius?

[sammyg2]

When they first came out with those complicated dashboards in cars, i thought it was a stupid idea. drivers should pay attention to the road, not a bunch of gauges and read outs. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

Then they came out with DVD players for cars and some of them ended up on the dash. i thought, that's a stupid idea, drivers should be paying attention to the road and not a movie. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

Then they came out with those computer screen navigation systems and I thought, that's a stupid idea. drivers should be paying attention to the road and not a computer screen. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

Am I the only one who thinks that way?
Maybe I'm just too old.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by jyl
My father has 100K miles on his 1st gen Prius, zero unscheduled maintenance, still going strong, mpg has declined to 45 mpg from prev 50+ but still good. Don't know when he'll have to replace the batteries, but by that time they won't cost much more than whatever work a conventional car will need by then - top-end job, etc.

My dad had to retire his '87 Honda Accord with 289K miles on it. He wanted to turn 300K but his mechanic told him to let it go it was going to cost too much to keep the car on the road to do that, too many little things going wrong.

He replaced it with a 1999 Honda Civic and gets 45-50MPG commuting to work with it, doing about 100 miles a day round trip 60% highway and 40% city driving. I can bet you he paid a fraction of what a Prius goes for. On one tank he got 53MPG but was never able to get that high again with 47 being the average.

I am not knocking people buying them but the cost keeps me away especially when you consider a Civic will just about match the Prius' MPG for a fraction of the cost.

[CJFusco]

You aren't the only one, Sammy. I think part of it is that television and computers have become such an invasive part of our everyday lives. Many families have televisions in every room - you can now buy a refrigerator with a built-in television! - and WiFi hotspots allow people to carry computers with them everywhere. As the car becomes more and more like a mobile office (have you ever been in a newer S-class or 7-series? it basically IS a mobile office), there will simply be more and more distractions.

And here I lust for a Caterham Seven...

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by sammyg2


Am I the only one who thinks that way?
Maybe I'm just too old.

I'm with you Sammy!

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by sammyg2
When they first came out with those complicated dashboards in cars, i thought it was a stupid idea. drivers should pay attention to the road, not a bunch of gauges and read outs. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

Our Audi has a information screen in the center of the dash. I normally turn it off to a blank screen only referring to it if I need to see something.

Then they came out with DVD players for cars and some of them ended up on the dash. i thought, that's a stupid idea, drivers should be paying attention to the road and not a movie. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

The dash nounted screens are not supposed to be active unless the e-brake is engaged. Unfortunatly many bypass this safety feature.

We resisted the DVD in car craze for many years, we broke down in 2004 when we seemed to be evacuating from hurricanes a lot and it seemed to ease the stress in the kids, take their minds off mommy and daddy being upset.

Now we travel back and forth from Florida to North Carolina a lot, 11 hours of driving. We let the kids watch one movie each way, or limit it to 2.5 hours. The rest of the time can be spent talking, reading and playing games. (not video) Call us old fashioned but we hate having our kids faces planted in screens the whole trip.

Then they came out with those computer screen navigation systems and I thought, that's a stupid idea. drivers should be paying attention to the road and not a computer screen. I wondered how many people were going to get killed by distracted drivers.

Am I the only one who thinks that way?
Maybe I'm just too old. [/B]

I personally like the GPS navigation, mine talks to me and I do not really need to see it. Although I will glance at it to make sure I understood it correctly. My glance lasts no longer than a check to the temp or gas guage. I like having GPS but I also print out maps and directions as a backup in case I do not like the GPS commands.

[Hetmann]

What are all these Prius drivers gonna do when they want to sell there used cars? I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy a car needing $6K in new batteries.

[pwd72s]

Saving fuel or the enviornment has little to do with it. Driving a Prius is making the statement that you are a "politically correct" lefty....it's an image thing.

[Z-man]

Mikester -
Ok - your car is about $4k more than a Corolla. Though the Prius may be a bit larger than a Corolla, the Corolla has a bit better performance - 126 hp pushing about 2500 lbs, vs. the Prius 110 hp pushing about 300 lbs. Let's call it even, more or less. Your costs are spot on with what I've seen in Automobile Magazine for base model cars.

Now, let's look at EPA numbers:
Corolla: 32/41. Average between the two is: 36.5 mpg
Prius: 61/51. Average between the two is: 56 mpg.
* EPA numbers are from Automobile Magazine's 2007 New Car Buyer's guide.

So there's about a 20mpg difference between the two in 'mixed driving' mode.

So let's assume both cars travel about 10,000 miles per year in mixed mode travel. And let's assume $2.00 a gallon to keep things simple. Annual fuel costs are:
Corolla: $547.95 (10,000 miles / 36.5 mpg * $2.00)
Prius: $357.14 (10,000 miles / 56 mpg * $2.00)

Thus, it costs $190.81 more a year in fuel costs to run a Corolla.

So how long before the Prius owner recoups the extra money he paid for his hybrid? That's simple:
$4000.00 / $190.81 = 20.96 years!!!

That's almost TWENTY ONE YEARS - to 'break even! And that's not counting the supposed extra cost of maintaining a significantly more complicated propulson system.

Well, I hope you plan on keeping your Prius for a long time...

When you run the numbers, it simply doesn't add up.

BTW: Nissan is developing a fuel cell car, not another hybrid, following the lead of Mercedes-Benz. Mark my words - in a few years, THAT will be the car to get. And I'll be lining up for that, if they manage to get the costs down before they bring it to the public.

-Zoltan.

[jyl]

Well, I'll tell you why we ought a Prius.

First, it gets better mpg than other cars that I'd actually want to drive. Sure, you can buy a tiny cheapo Yaris and get great mpg. Don't think many of you want to drive a Yaris, and neither do I. (Or a boring-as-mud Corolla.) Nor do I want to hunt for a truck stop to fuel a Jetta TDI.

Second, it is far more interesting to drive than most other cars. Striving for maximum mpg, using the information on the Prius screen, is simply entertaining. It not a fast car, but if I want speed, power, etc, why would I buy a new car? I have a 911.

Third, it is equivalent in room, comfort, features, to other cars of the same price range. What we paid for the Prius would get me into an Audi A4 sort of European sedan. I'm equally comfortable in the Prius. I've got full leather, heated seats, GPS-nav, Bluetooth phone, JBL sound, CD changer, airbags everywhere, etc. No fake wood, but I guess you can add it if you want.

Fourth, I wanted an ultra-reliable Japanese car. After the Range Rover, I'm tired of being best friends with my mechanic. Not a lot of makes have the reliabilty record of Toyota's cars, and I find other Toyota models too boring.

I find the carping about "How many miles will you have to drive to pay for the hybrid feature" laughable. Nobody asks a BMW driver "how many miles will you have to drive to pay for the German badge" or asks a Porsche driver "how many miles will you have to drive to pay for the 911 handling".

Finally, all the concern about a Prius' resale value is misguided. Check out prices of used Priuses, either 1st gen or current gen. Do the depreciation math. The cars hold their value very well. Some of this is certainly due to the tightness of supply, which is easing, but even after that fades, the car is likely to depreciate no worse than other cars.

Battery replacement cost is a non-issue. Toyota quotes $3K for a replacement battery, but the Prius battery is tested for over 180,000 miles and Prius taxis have driven 200,000 miles without needing battery replacement. Last time I checked, no Prius battery had been replaced due to old age (though some have been replaced for defects). The battery is not deep-cycled, so it lasts a very long time.

[lendaddy]

Hmm, how many Prius' or is that Priui do you think would have sold with a standard drivetrain at that price?

I bet I could guess and get fairly close.

[jyl]

What's your point, len?

How many 911s would have sold with a Pinto engine?

The hybrid drivetrain is part of the entertainment value of the car.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally posted by Z-man
Mikester -
Ok - your car is about $4k more than a Corolla. Though the Prius may be a bit larger than a Corolla, the Corolla has a bit better performance - 126 hp pushing about 2500 lbs, vs. the Prius 110 hp pushing about 300 lbs. Let's call it even, more or less. Your costs are spot on with what I've seen in Automobile Magazine for base model cars.

Now, let's look at EPA numbers:
Corolla: 32/41. Average between the two is: 36.5 mpg
Prius: 61/51. Average between the two is: 56 mpg.
* EPA numbers are from Automobile Magazine's 2007 New Car Buyer's guide.

So there's about a 20mpg difference between the two in 'mixed driving' mode.

So let's assume both cars travel about 10,000 miles per year in mixed mode travel. And let's assume $2.00 a gallon to keep things simple. Annual fuel costs are:
Corolla: $547.95 (10,000 miles / 36.5 mpg * $2.00)
Prius: $357.14 (10,000 miles / 56 mpg * $2.00)

Thus, it costs $190.81 more a year in fuel costs to run a Corolla.

So how long before the Prius owner recoups the extra money he paid for his hybrid? That's simple:
$4000.00 / $190.81 = 20.96 years!!!

That's almost TWENTY ONE YEARS - to 'break even! And that's not counting the supposed extra cost of maintaining a significantly more complicated propulson system.

Well, I hope you plan on keeping your Prius for a long time...

When you run the numbers, it simply doesn't add up.

BTW: Nissan is developing a fuel cell car, not another hybrid, following the lead of Mercedes-Benz. Mark my words - in a few years, THAT will be the car to get. And I'll be lining up for that, if they manage to get the costs down before they bring it to the public.

-Zoltan.

My stepfather bought one a few years ago.

He got a $2000 income tax credit, gets tires replaced for life and gets to use HOV lane without someone else in the car.

I drive it when I visit. It's actually not a bad ride.

Scott

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by jyl
What's your point, len?

How many 911s would have sold with a Pinto engine?

The hybrid drivetrain is part of the entertainment value of the car.

If you seriously feel "entertained" by that drivetrain then I guess I don't have a point.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by lendaddy
If you seriously feel "entertained" by that drivetrain then I guess I don't have a point.

If I want to be entertained by data that my car produces while I'm driving, I'll get a DAS system for the racetrack, and download the data after the event, instead of driving along at a speed where my mpg is in the green, and while I've got 50 people behind me screaming to get by, and I should be paying attention to the ROAD and not the fancy bar charts my car makes thank-you-very-much. Better yet - if you want to be entertained by pretty charts and graphs, I'll send you over a copy of the latest disk usage charts I created last week at work in Excel.

ljyl
First, it gets better mpg than other cars that I'd actually want to drive.

Yeah, about 20mpg more than a comprable car - which, as I stated means that you'll be ahead of the game in about 21 years. 21 YEARS! If he hopes to keep his car that long. Or, if you drive 20,000 a year, in about 10 years. Still a long way off - if I took that $4000.00 (the difference between a Prius and a Corolla) and invested it in some stocks and mutual funds, I'd have enough $$ to buy your Pruis when you get bored with all the entertaining it offers you.

The whole hybrid vehicle market is, IMHO, a major scam. The car appeals to those who are environmentally friendly (BTW: ever consider used up battery disposals and its impact on the environment?), and folks who believe that such cars will save them tons of $$ immediately. Car companys jack up the price due to such appeals, and make some serious money by catering to the "in crowd."

stomachmonkey
He got a $2000 income tax credit,

So based on my calculations, it will still take 10 years for him to break even! So he'll get 2-3 sets of tires for free - IF he keeps the car for that long. And the only place where the whole HOV issue means anything is the area around LA. Most places in the USA don't have that issue. Stomachmonkey - you live in Huntington NY - how many HOV lanes do you see on your daily commute? I guess if I ever take a road trip to LA, I'll be sure to borrow someone's Prius.

I'm not necessarily saying that hybrids are a scam - but they are overpriced by about $4000.00. If the car makers really want to give the consumers a break in terms of saving money on gas, they should sell the cars at the same price as their gas counterparts.

Hmm - I think I'll go sniff some gasoline.
-Zoltan.

PS: On a side note: my daily driver is a 12 year old Subaru Legacy I bought new. So if anyone keeps their car long, it's me. But I still wouldn't keep a car for 20 years, just to break even in fuel consumption...

[jyl]

If you want to spend, consume, and pollute as little as possible per mile driven, the answer is clear. You buy a used, stripper, manual-shift, subcompact Toyota or Honda, a few years old. Initial cost is low. Gas mileage is good. Emission are low. No energy and environmental impact from building another new car.

So, if I were broke or an ardent tree-hugger, that's what I would do.

Since I'm neither, I get to drive something entertaining. Now, entertainment is in the eye of the entertained. I find it's quite fun to figure out how to drive a given route for maximum mpg. Sometimes it is better to accelerate briskly on the gas engine then coast, other times you want to stay battery-only as long as possible, sometimes you want to let the car regenerate electricity via engine braking, other times you want to feather the throttle so the car is truly gliding. I find it kind of like amusing yourself by trying to do the smoothest downshift in the 911.

As for the image of 50 people behind me screaming to get by, you've got the wrong image - it's not a Winnebago. I admit I do tend to drive the speed limit in town, but I do that in the 911 too - after I learned (the expensive way) what a pain the speed enforcement is here in Portland.

[lendaddy]

My mother in laws '85 Audi 5000S had a fuel mileage gauge on it too, great times!

[stomachmonkey]

you live in Huntington NY - how many HOV lanes do you see on your daily commute?

I have my office on the Island but my clients are all in the city.

From my front door to the Queens Midtown tunnel is 31 miles. The only way to get there in under 2 hours is the HOV lane. For important meetings I get a driver so I can work on the way in and get there faster.

My stepfather is in Fl, lives in Boca and worked in Miami, same deal, the traffic on 95 is a killer, HOV lane is the only way to go.

I agree with you that there is no real cost benefit, I was simply pointing out that there are additional benefits that may be a deciding factor for some.

I personally do not shop gas, my wife will drive 5 miles to save 2 cents a gallon. Makes no sense to me.

Scott

[coldstart]

I am a big fan of the Prius. It definitely is a step in the right direction-- economical and environmentally friendly. We own a Honda Accord hybrid which we LOVE (more power, better economy and fun to drive).

That said, there is more to a Prius than just the expensive batteries. The local paper tested one long term and scraped the power cable running the length of the bottom of the Prius. $2,000 later.....Then the brakes went-- about double the cost of a normal brake job.

No hybrids in HOV lanes in Ontario.....passengers only.....

If you are looking at straight dollar for dollar, hybrids don't make sense. If you would love to see OPEC and the price of oil hit rock bottom OR care about the environment, get one. Fantastic cars.....

[Rot 911]

My other car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 5.7 Hemi engine. It's fun to see how low I can get the gas mileage. So far my personal best low is 6.7 mpg.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by mikester
Another question, We're here on a Porsche driven board - really what percentage of us buys a car based on how it "adds up?"

I don't have a porsche because it "adds up" I have one because I want it.

While we may not see eye to eye on the whole hybrid issue, I vehemently disagree with your statement above. If I may take a tanget for a moment.

When I bought my Porsche back in 2001, it was after 4 years of searching for a 'toy car.' I considered just about everything from Alpha Romeo to the Nissan Z. But I kept coming back to the Porsche Marque. Why? Many reasons, including: racing heritage, reputation for terrific engineering, being a 'driver's car' huge support via the Porsche specific car clubs, plus all Porsches are known to stand head and shoulders above their contemporary counterparts.

I bought a Porsche because it DOES add up. What 17 year old car can you take to a race track, flog it around the corners endlessly, and drive it back home without an issue? Granted, I didn't realize that Porsches aren't very wallet friendly, but that is the cost I must pay for what I have.

Actually, Porsche ownership adds up better than hybrid ownership does, IMHO.

-Z-man.

Psst - Fuel cell technology -- that is the future.