Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?

[jkarolyi]

Sometimes, ya gotta admit, Pat actually hits it spot on!

[Racerbvd]

Supe, Slow, I look forward to drinks someday, and I'll PM you Slow.

OK, guys one thing that I don't think has really been touched on, when the MW is increased, there will be another increase, an increase in illegals will to work for less, and there are far too business owners who would be will to hire them and pocket the savings. Before we raise the MW we should clamp down on those who hire the illegals, and give the American workers a chance!!!

Doesn't matter if there is an R or D, the owners who hire illegals should be punished and made an example of!!!

[Superman]

Byron, I'm glad you brought that up. As I've said, actually fixing the immigration problem is the LAST thing you will see the Republican Party doing. This is cheap labor we're talking about. And not just a little of it. A HUGE amount of it that basically forms the foundation of our wealth and prosperity. Like for example, the ENTIRE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY.

It has been said here that a MW increase will cause substantial inflation. I know that's not true and I know the people making that remark have not reviewed the econometrics. Another thing I know is that if the illegals were kicked out of American today and not allowed to return.......trust me on this one.......you would see wage inflation the likes of which you could have never imagined in your wildest hallucinations.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
Byron, I'm glad you brought that up. As I've said, actually fixing the immigration problem is the LAST thing you will see the Republican Party doing. This is cheap labor we're talking about. And not just a little of it. A HUGE amount of it that basically forms the foundation of our wealth and prosperity. Like for example, the ENTIRE AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY.

Of course that's completely not true. See Ed Rubenstein's articles for a full picture of the economics of immigration.
http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/index.htm

It has been said here that a MW increase will cause substantial inflation. I know that's not true and I know the people making that remark have not reviewed the econometrics. Another thing I know is that if the illegals were kicked out of American today and not allowed to return.......trust me on this one.......you would see wage inflation the likes of which you could have never imagined in your wildest hallucinations.

The negative economics of the minimum wage are irrefutable. I've posted all anyone needs to see that. Superman knows this fact, but refuses to acknowledge it.

[wrcRS]

Does anyone on here have children that go to college full time on here or they themselves go to college full time?

I will admit I have a personal tie to my opinion as my girlfriend is living on her own, does not take any government assistance and goes to school full time. She was offered a job at 9 bucks an hour with an average of 20-25 hours per week. At this rate she can pay rent for an apartment...

But, as natural gas is rising (not due to wage increases) here in Alaska, and many other utilities (not due to wage increases) she pays almost 200 for her cut of the utilities. The math is pretty simple, minimum wage is pathetic. And she is MORE than capable of doing many kinds of work, but she is a full time college student toughing it out on her own. Not many jobs are available to a student with high hopes of making something of themselves with a full time school schedule. Not to mention that school fee's and books are always on the rise too.

If a business can't handle a small increase in wages...that business is already doomed. If you can't see that...then I suggest that perhaps you should step out of your shoes for just a second.

But considering that business are booming, insurance companies, oil companies, and tons of other types of business are making record profits...we the working class all the way up to the high class are benefiting (if you have stock or other investments.) So I think that the hike in prices are due to NON lower class citizens being more efficient with the same amount of money we made 5 years ago leaving us with more disposable income.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by wrcRS
Does anyone on here have children that go to college full time on here or they themselves go to college full time?

I will admit I have a personal tie to my opinion as my girlfriend is living on her own, does not take any government assistance and goes to school full time. She was offered a job at 9 bucks an hour with an average of 20-25 hours per week. At this rate she can pay rent for an apartment...

But, as natural gas is rising (not due to wage increases) here in Alaska, and many other utilities (not due to wage increases) she pays almost 200 for her cut of the utilities. The math is pretty simple, minimum wage is pathetic. And she is MORE than capable of doing many kinds of work, but she is a full time college student toughing it out on her own. Not many jobs are available to a student with high hopes of making something of themselves with a full time school schedule. Not to mention that school fee's and books are always on the rise too.

If a business can't handle a small increase in wages...that business is already doomed. If you can't see that...then I suggest that perhaps you should step out of your shoes for just a second.

But considering that business are booming, insurance companies, oil companies, and tons of other types of business are making record profits...we the working class all the way up to the high class are benefiting (if you have stock or other investments.) So I think that the hike in prices are due to NON lower class citizens being more efficient with the same amount of money we made 5 years ago leaving us with more disposable income.

Still no one as answered Pats question, does anyone really know someone over 21 who still makes MW??

BTW, like Pat, I haven't made MW since a teen and even then, wasn't on it very long, and I worked two jobs to pay for my college, no help from Gov or from my parents. If prices go up, to pay the higher wages, people tend to spend less, look what happened when gas prices went up, people cut back on spending. The reason oil companies are making record profits is the huge number of cars on the road, volume means profit. BTW Supe, I do ***** at my Repblican reb (who is Cuban) for not doing anything about the illegal problem.

[snowman]

THe going rate for ILLEGAL ALLIENS is $10 per hour PLUS Lunch!

The going rate for high school students is $5.10 per hour, but they only work 1/4 as hard as illegals.

Both my kids started working at 16 and have never earned less than $10 per hour.

Anyone else making mininum wage is worthless and should be paid NOT to work.

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by snowman
The going rate for high school students is $5.10 per hour, but they only work 1/4 as hard as illegals.

I love made up statistics. They're especially handy at cocktail parties.

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Still no one as answered Pats question, does anyone really know someone over 21 who still makes MW??

Personally, I don't know any Islamic terrorists or Chinese Communists. I still think they exist due to statistical and circumstantial evidence. Doesn't really matter. To some, an increase in MW is the death knell of modern capitalist society. To others, its no big deal. There are excellent (reasonably unbiased) economic arguments for both sides of this discussion - bad and inflationary or good and stimulating. The effects are probably too volatile to be measured in any significant way.

And it probably does both at the same time in different parts of the economy.

So there.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by wrcRS
Does anyone on here have children that go to college full time on here or they themselves go to college full time?

I will admit I have a personal tie to my opinion as my girlfriend is living on her own, does not take any government assistance and goes to school full time. She was offered a job at 9 bucks an hour with an average of 20-25 hours per week. At this rate she can pay rent for an apartment...
...

So you are saying that an unskilled person can make enough to live on working 20-25 hrs per week with wages set competitively.

On the other hand, why would you not expect an increase in minimum wage to hurt your girlfriend. If the folks who are paid less get a raise...do you not expect her rent or other expenses to go up?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by JSDSKI

Personally, I don't know any Islamic terrorists or Chinese Communists. I still think they exist due to statistical and circumstantial evidence. Doesn't really matter. To some, an increase in MW is the death knell of modern capitalist society. To others, its no big deal. There are excellent (reasonably unbiased) economic arguments for both sides of this discussion - bad and inflationary or good and stimulating. The effects are probably too volatile to be measured in any significant way.

And it probably does both at the same time in different parts of the economy.

It's not a question of there being NO people earning minimum wage, it's the problem of the minimum wage being a job killer for low or non-skilled people. So should we allow the USG to set a minimum wage to assist a nearly non-existent group of people when the process actually causes harm for a fairly large group of people?

That doesn't even get into the fact that there's absolutely no Constitutional authorization for the federal government to act to set a minimum wage. Just one more example of a lawless government empowering itself.

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by fastpatIt's not a question of there being NO people earning minimum wage, it's the problem of the minimum wage being a job killer for low or non-skilled people.... So should we allow the USG to set a minimum wage to assist a nearly non-existent group of people when the process actually causes harm for a fairly large group of people?... That doesn't even get into the fact that there's absolutely no Constitutional authorization for the federal government to act to set a minimum wage. Just one more example of a lawless government empowering itself.

Such a peculiar view of the Constitution is disheartening.

There is no definitive answer to this argument. There is just as much evidence an MW increase is a benefit. It has existed for a long time in many different countries with many different economies and many different demographics without destroying low and non-skilled jobs. Instead, there are substantial studies that answer both sides of this issue affirmatively and negatively. This tells me that the minimum wage is just a variable in a complex economy rather than an organizing principle. It is a small part of the larger question of WAGES.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
I love made up statistics. They're especially handy at cocktail parties.

64% of all statistics are made up out of thin air.

[JSDSKI]

You made that up.

[Moneyguy1]

We just have to get back to the robber barons...No problems, no questions, no rights.........

An arcane comment based on a character from 'Lil Amber:, an industrialist called General Bullmoose: "What's good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA!!"

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
We just have to get back to the robber barons...No problems, no questions, no rights.........
...

Could have come directly from Pelosi's mouth (First 100 hrs).

[Moneyguy1]

Like Ronald Reagan would say:

"Now there you go again....."

[fastpat]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
Such a peculiar view of the Constitution is disheartening.

There is no definitive answer to this argument. There is just as much evidence an MW increase is a benefit. It has existed for a long time in many different countries with many different economies and many different demographics without destroying low and non-skilled jobs. Instead, there are substantial studies that answer both sides of this issue affirmatively and negatively. This tells me that the minimum wage is just a variable in a complex economy rather than an organizing principle. It is a small part of the larger question of WAGES.

There is no evidence based on empirical data showing any benefit to the minimum wage, and lots of date (which I posted) showing just the opposite.

My view of the Constitution is that it formed the federal government as an agent of the states, was ratified by the states, and is an envelope within which the federal government must remain to be lawful.

That's pretty far from peculiar, is it not?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
We just have to get back to the robber barons...No problems, no questions, no rights.........

An arcane comment based on a character from 'Lil Amber:, an industrialist called General Bullmoose: "What's good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA!!"

Interesting that you bring up the so-called "Robber Barons". I just watched a History Channel program on them, and as usual they had a mixture of the real robber barons and those that were not robber barons at all.

To be a genuine Robber Baron you had to have, as your primary benefactor, the US or a state government in direct partnership in your enterprise. Almost all of the Railroad giants after 1850 were Robber Barons, as was Andrew Carnegie, and a few others. One of those mentioned in the show, John D. Rockefeller, was not a Robber Baron because his success was made despite government interference, not because of it.

[snowman]

Labor unions put the robber barons at bay, but the robber barons had the troops of the US govt. on their side. Check out the steel union’s early history in Pittsburg.

Pat is correct. The US constitution has words prohibiting activity such as setting minimum wages and nothing to support that authority. They just did it, and they have the biggest guns.

I have an idea. All the attorneys that won those huge tobacco awards should pool their money and start suing the feds for every unconstitutional law or action the feds have taken. The US Supreme Court can then set things straight.