Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?

[SlowToady]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Come talk to use in 20 years after you have found out what we really have to do to build and expand business. I earned mine, so why should others who aren't willing to do what it takes be rewarded for being failures!! See, you have no clue how hard we work to start and build a business on our own, you have never had to make payrole or office lease, so you have worked for others, you don't have the responsabilities we have. High horse, hell I worked my ass off with years of hard work to climb up. I hope you get that towing biz, so you can see what it really cost to run a biz, how many hours you have to put in when it is your name on the line.

You're right Byron, I have absolutely no idea what it is like to run a business but "Dad"* shows Jr.* and I the ropes, the ins and outs, the expenses, and so on of running a business, in this case a successful body shop. Along with that comes all the stories of starting out dirt poor, risking everything you have and then some, and making it, despite everyone telling you you are doomed to fail. (FWIW, and that's probably not much, I work for him for free in exchange for the knowledge he passes on. Not actually a bad gig, I guess.) I have no illusions about what it takes, so keep your half-assed assumptions to yourself. You may be mildly successful, but in the grand scheme of things, you're still a no-body.

I'm going to assume that the Liberal Arts Major picture, with the woman serving coffee, is aimed at me. Tell me Byron, what is your degree in?

I'd love to come talk to you in 20 years after I get my bank long. You'll get a thumbs up and big **** YOU

By now, we're quite far off topic. If you have anything further to attack me personally about, please direct it either to PM or email. slowtoady@fakelife.com

Fair enough, It's not a big deal. I should be doing research anyway

Basically:-P I just thought it was interesting, conceptually. I automatically assumed that others, like me, would work harder when they got more money, although the reading I've done doesn't say either way. If you hadn't responded in the negative, I probably would have never looked at it. Thank you.

If my grades suffer this semester, I'm blaming it on PPOT:-D This place sucks (up free time) like a hooker!

[JSDSKI]

Poverty levels are related to overall cost of living - which as we all know only goes up (unless you are a digital product or service). The fed's minimum wage increase have never kept up with inflation so minimum wage cannot directly change poverty levels. There's a fundamental economic disconnect. Minimum wage only effects poverty levels in a roundabout way - through some increased earnings and whatever stimulus those earnings create.

Those poor bastards who work in businesses where the minimum wage increase causes apoplexy in their owners will suffer despite any wage increase, decrease, or maybe because of it, and some will be fired. They will probably be able to get jobs at the higher wage at a business where other minimum wage earners spend their money.

Eventually you cranky business owners will have to rehire some bodies at the higher wage simply because of all the extra business minimum wage spenders have created.

Anybody know what the economies or poverty levels are like in countries without a minimum wage ?

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by SlowToady
[B]You're right Byron, I have absolutely no idea what it is like to run a business but "Dad"* shows Jr.* and I the ropes, the ins and outs, the expenses, and so on of running a business, in this case a successful body shop. Along with that comes all the stories of starting out dirt poor, risking everything you have and then some, and making it, despite everyone telling you you are doomed to fail. (FWIW, and that's probably not much, I work for him for free in exchange for the knowledge he passes on. Not actually a bad gig, I guess.) I have no illusions about what it takes, so keep your half-assed assumptions to yourself. You may be mildly successful, but in the grand scheme of things, you're still a no-body.

I'm going to assume that the Liberal Arts Major picture, with the woman serving coffee, is aimed at me. Tell me Byron, what is your degree in?

I'd love to come talk to you in 20 years after I get my bank long. You'll get a thumbs up and big **** YOU

By now, we're quite far off topic. If you have anything further to attack me personally about, please direct it either to PM or email. slowtoady@fakelife.com



Basically:-P I just thought it was interesting, conceptually. I automatically assumed that others, like me, would work harder when they got more money, although the reading I've done doesn't say either way. If you hadn't responded in the negative, I probably would have never looked at it. Thank you.

If my grades suffer this semester, I'm blaming it on PPOT:-D This place sucks (up free time) like a hooker!

That is great thaty you work with your dad, Marketing by the way, and body shops don't generaly have to many people at MW, as even though many start sweeping floors, if they show a desire (which is why people, car guys) look for jobs their. I guess I'm justr old school, you work hard, prove your worth, and then get more money, like the rich b*tch thread here, you get nothing when you give everything early. I honestly hope you do make bank then so you can give the big F-you, beliefe me, that is very rewarding (this I mean from the bottem of my heart as when I was told I could to something, and that was often, I worked that much harder to get there. You may think I'm an A-hole now, but when you get the towing biz going, and work (as I'm sure your father does) the 100 hour weeks, you will see what I'm saying and maybe even thank me in your head. I assume you are a good studend, work come pretty easy to you, well, I was a c student, had to work my but off, and the one regret, was listening to a family friend and switching from Law (he hated lawyers) but, we all have regrets. I feel you get the best out of people when they are challenged, I grew up an underdog, from racing BMX to everything, and made sure to work my a$$ off until I got to the top!! I truely hope that you get to the point to say FU!!! I REALLY MEAN IT. You may think I'm a nobody, but you would really be surprised Everyone one else has been and I am respected in my fields

[JSDSKI]

Well, I did some r&d to answer my own question - funnily enough most of the major countries WITHOUT minimum wage regs come under the heading of Eurotrash socialist states - who knew!?!

NO MINIMUM WAGE REQUIREMENTS: Denmark, Iceland, Italy, Norway, Liechtenstein, Singapore, Switzerland, and most of the OPEC nations.

What does this mean????

[livi]

Higher wages - more business transactions - more tax money generated - better state finances..

No ?

Sorry, they did not teach economics at med school.

[SlowToady]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
That is great thaty you work with your dad, Marketing by the way, and body shops don't generaly have to many people at MW, as even though many start sweeping floors, if they show a desire (which is why people, car guys) look for jobs their. I guess I'm justr old school, you work hard, prove your worth, and then get more money, like the rich b*tch thread here, you get nothing when you give everything early. I honestly hope you do make bank then so you can give the big F-you, beliefe me, that is very rewarding (this I mean from the bottem of my heart as when I was told I could to something, and that was often, I worked that much harder to get there. You may think I'm an A-hole now, but when you get the towing biz going, and work (as I'm sure your father does) the 100 hour weeks, you will see what I'm saying and maybe even thank me in your head. I assume you are a good studend, work come pretty easy to you, well, I was a c student, had to work my but off, and the one regret, was listening to a family friend and switching from Law (he hated lawyers) but, we all have regrets. I feel you get the best out of people when they are challenged, I grew up an underdog, from racing BMX to everything, and made sure to work my a$$ off until I got to the top!! I truely hope that you get to the point to say FU!!! I REALLY MEAN IT. You may think I'm a nobody, but you would really be surprised Everyone one else has been and I am respected in my fields

I said I wasn't going to keep taking this OT, but what the heck

"dad" is actually my best friend's dad, but they have taken care of me for a few years for a variety of reasons, and so I feel like he's my dad. You're completely right, I am extremely lucky to get to be around him. On a more personal note, just to show we're on the same page, I feel the same way you do: I think one should work for what they want. Many will find this curious, but "Dad" isn't giving the business, or the property, or the money, to any of the kids. Says he doesn't want the kids living off his hard work; it's a pretty big inspiration to Jr (his son, my best friend) and I. My argument in this thread is purely to be the dissenting voice, because I feel that is how you learn. Case in point is my reply to Len about how I looked up the topic we were on and learned that there is no firm agreement.

People like you and "dad" are few and far between with regards to work and how much of it you do. I have mad respect for you. The nobody comment was just me being pissed off:-d No harm no foul, ey?

And Racer, with that FU comes a bigass beer and a steak. It's people like you that fuel my dreams. People that just say "oh I know you can do it..." don't give much inspiration.

Where the hell is OP, FL? You can PM me if you don't want to post it out in the open. Next time I get to FL, I'm going to look you up.

[fastpat]

It's not amazing to see that those who advocate the minimum wage are the same that continue to believe in and support the world's largest Ponzi scheme, Social Security.

More information to debunk the minimum wage mythology.

1. Outlawing Jobs: The Minimum Wage, Once More
2. Professor Stiglitz and the Minimum Wage
3. INTERFERENCE WITH THE STRUCTURE OF PRICES
4. Minimum Wage, Minimum Tax
5. What You Need to Know About the Minimum Wage

Excerpt from the last resource

Helping the Poor

Wage interventionists claim that raising the minimum wage is necessary because of the plight of the poor. Well, when we consider whether raising the minimum wage helps the "poor," we should know something about who we mean by "poor." When we hear talk about how many poor people, and especially children, there are in the United States, it is natural to form mental images of people without adequate food, clothing, and shelter. People deprived of the very necessities of life.

Data from the most recent census, however, reveal that those who are officially classified as "poor" by the United Statesgovernment possess a surprising amount of wealth.[2] The official "poor" are not that poor after all. For example, for those persons classified as "poor," 46% own their own home and 76% have air conditioning. More than 66% of the "poor" have more than two rooms of living space per person. In fact, the average "poor" United States citizen has more living space that the average citizen (not "poor" citizen) living in Austria, Belgium, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and the United Kingdom; 97% of the official American "poor" own a color television and over half own more than one; 62% of the "poor" have either cable or satellite television. Far from being undernourished, the "poor" have a greater obesity problem than the rest of the population. The most common hardship that most poor people face is making late rent and utility payments.

The facts paint a picture very different from the images of squalor associated with the term "poverty." Much of this is due to a shift in the definition of poverty from one of absolute deprivation of the necessities of life to one of having relatively less than other people. As egalitarianism has gained a larger grip on the public intellect, policy entrepreneurs have become more and more inclined to accept the relativist definition.

Because in any free society there will always be people who earn more than others, there will always be the possibility of defining those on the low end of the income statistics as poor, thereby creating an instant constituency with which to exchange goodies for votes. In any event, whenever we hear claims that we must do this or that to help the poor, we need to remember that the number of people in this country that are actually deprived of food, clothing, and shelter are very, very few. Not exactly a reason over which to create or expand a government program.

[skipdup]

OK. Seriously. Since when does an increase in wage make people work harder? Is this a joke? Are people actually arguing this with a straight face?

I have received many pay increases. And, many bonuses. And awards. None have made me work harder. All of them were received for working hard/smart. Not the other way around. Come on.

Also, I have never seen a co-worker work harder just because they received a pay increase. I have seen plenty of people start working hard for future promotion/bonus/wage increas...

- Skip

[Superman]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Supe, I know we don't agree on anything but women & cars, but if you are ever in the area, I would love to get together over drinks, remember, I did grow up in an old school Union household and got to know the founder of the NMU Joe Curran.

I'd be more than happy to swap drink rounds with you. Sure, we disagree on some of the details but we're both Americans and that means more. Plus, you're obviously a sturdy sort who's not afraid of bicycles or people. It would be my pleasure.

[Superman]

Originally posted by skipdup
OK. Seriously. Since when does an increase in wage make people work harder? Is this a joke? Are people actually arguing this with a straight face?

I have received many pay increases. And, many bonuses. And awards. None have made me work harder. All of them were received for working hard/smart. Not the other way around. Come on.

Also, I have never seen a co-worker work harder just because they received a pay increase. I have seen plenty of people start working hard for future promotion/bonus/wage increas...

- Skip

Skip, you are dissing a brute fact. You are pretending the only motivator out there is fear and punishment. Quite frankly, pride and reward are far more powerful motivators. In fact, from what I have seen, fear is a huge demotivator. Fear, at best, results in temporary performance and permanent hatred. If you want a frantic work force that pretends to work hard but will plunge a knife in your back at the first opportunity, then fear is your best tool to achieve that.

I have also found that one really effective way to get folks to step up and realize their potential......is to treat them as though they have already achieved that. Pretend that a workers has range the bell.....grabbed the brass ring......and that worker will step up and fill those shoes. Yes, wage increases are powerful motivators. They create just a bit of shame, combined with a bit of hope, and a taste of success.

Of course, if the wage increase comes from the gubmit against the vigorous displeasure of the employer, then the employer is NOT exactly going to get credit for that, and is not going to see the performance increases.

Two businesses are across the street from each other, competing in the same market. One business is owned by a rabid conservative who decries being forced to pay workers more than $5.15 under a forced gubmit minimum wage hike. He thinks fear is the best motivator.

Across the street is Superman and his loyal followers who probably already make more than $5.15. Superman does not threaten his workers. Instead, they know he relies on them for the breakthroughs that will help him lead this industry. Even if he cannot always pay the wages he'd like to pay, those workers most certainly know his appreciation of those efforts.

Any bets on who will kick whose ass? I know the answer to this one with absolute certainty.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Superman
Bull****. We have been over this before. We have drug out the stats. This notion that the typical minimum wage earner is a minor is MYTHOLOGY. It is factually untrue.

Humor me...let's rehash it again (I think I missed the first go-round)

From the US Department of Labor:

Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2002

According to Current Population Survery estimates for 2002, some 72.7 million American workers were paid at hourly rates, representing 59.6 percent of all wage and salary workers.

1 Of those paid by the hour, about 570,000 were reported earning exactly $5.15, the prevailing Federal minimum wage, and another 1.6 million were reported with wages below the minimum.

2 Together, these 2.2 million workers with wages at or below the minimum made up 3.0 percent of all hourly-paid workers.

The following are some highlights from the 2002 data.

Minimum wage workers tend to be young. About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and slightly more than one-fourth were age 16-19. Among teenagers, 10 percent earned $5.15 or less. About 2 percent of workers age 25 and over earned the minimum wage or less. However, among those age 65 and over, the proportion was about 5 percent. (See table 1 and table 7.)

About 4 percent of women paid hourly rates reported wages at or below the prevailing Federal minimum, compared with about 2 percent of men. (See table 1.)

The proportion of hourly-paid workers receiving $5.15 or less was about 3 percent for whites, blacks, and Hispanics. For whites and Hispanics, women were more likely than men to be low-wage earners. (See table 1.)

Never-married workers, who also tend to be quite young, are more likely to earn the minimum wage or less than persons who are married. (See table 8.)

The likelihood of a worker being paid the minimum wage or less is inversely related to the level of education attained. Among hourly-paid workers age 16 and over, a little over 2 percent of those who had a high school diploma but had not gone on to college earned the minimum or less, compared with less than 2 percent for those who had obtained a college degree. (See table 6.)

Part-time workers (persons who usually work less than 35 hours per week) were much more likely than their full-time counterparts to be paid $5.15 or less (about 8 percent versus about 2 percent). About 1 in 10 workers putting in fewer than 15 hours per week earned the minimum or less. (See table 1 and table 9.)

By occupational group, the proportion of hourly-paid workers whose earnings were reported at or below $5.15 ranged from a low of less than 1 percent for persons employed in managerial and professional specialty jobs and in precision production, craft, and repair positions, to a high of about 10 percent for those in service jobs. Roughly two-thirds of all low-wage workers in 2002 were in service-type occupations, mostly in food service jobs. (See table 4.)

Among industry groups, the proportion of workers with reported hourly wages at or below $5.15 was highest in retail trade (about 8 percent), agriculture (about 2 percent), and services (also about 2 percent). About three-fifths of all low-wage workers were employed in retail trade, and nearly one-fourth worked in services. It should be recognized that for many working in these two industries, tips and commissions might supplement the hourly wages received. (See table 5.)

Among the four broad geographic regions, the West had the lowest proportion of hourly workers with earnings at or below $5.15 (about 2 percent), while the South had the highest (about 4 percent). For a number of States, the proportion of hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage exceeded the national average; in many other States, the proportion was much lower. Some States have minimum wage laws establishing minimum wage standards that exceed the Federal level of $5.15 per hour. (See table 2 and table 3.)

The proportion of hourly-paid workers earning the prevailing Federal minimum wage or less has trended downward since 1979, when data first began to be collected on a regular basis. (See table 10.)

Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics. Bureau of Labor Statistics' data on minimum wage earners are derived from the Current Population Survey (CPS), a nationwide sample survey of households that includes questions enabling the identification of hourly-paid workers and their hourly wage rate. Data in this summary are 2002 annual averages.

And an article from the Heritage Foundation based on the above report:

Who Earns the Minimum Wage--Single Parents or Suburban Teenagers?

As Congress debates raising the minimum wage, Congress should consider which workers—assuming that their jobs are not casualties of the higher minimum wage—the change would benefit. Data from the Department of Labor show that most minimum wage-earners are young, part-time workers and that relatively few live below the poverty line. A minimum wage hike, then, is more a raise for suburban teenagers than for the working poor. If Congress is serious about helping the working poor, it should look elsewhere than raising the minimum wage.

Relatively few Americans earn the federal minimum wage.[1] In 2005, 1.9 million Americans reported earning $5.15 or less per hour.[2] This amounted to 2.5 percent of all workers earning hourly wages and 1.5 percent of all workers in the United States. But these numbers include workers who also earn tip income. Many of those earning less than the minimum wage work in restaurants and so make more than the minimum after taking their tips into account. Using another measure of earnings that includes tips, 1.3 million Americans earn the minimum wage or less per hour, or 1.1 percent of the total working population.[3]

The Young

Most workers who earn the minimum wage or less fall into two categories: young workers, usually in school, and older workers who have left school. The majority of minimum wage-earners fall into the first category: 53 percent of those earning $5.15 or less per hour are between the ages of 16 and 24. [4] The remainder are 25 years of age or older.

Minimum wage workers under 25 are typically not their family’s sole breadwinner. Rather, they live in middle-class households that do not rely on their earnings. For the most part, they have not finished their schooling and are working part-time jobs. These workers represent the largest group that would directly benefit from a higher minimum wage.

Here are a few important characteristics of the teenagers and young adults who earn the minimum wage or less:

Fully 67 percent work part-time jobs.
Their average family income is $64,000 per year.
Only 17 percent live at or below the poverty line, while 65 percent enjoy family incomes over twice the poverty line.[5]
They have less education than the population as a whole. Fully 36 percent have not completed high school, and 21 percent have only a high school degree. Another 37 percent have taken college courses but do not yet have a bachelor’s degree; many of these are college students working part-time while in school.
Fully 65 percent are women.
Only 5 percent are married.
Older Workers

Even the vast majority of older adults who earn the minimum wage live above the poverty line. They have an average family income of $33,600 a year, well above the poverty line of $19,806 per year for a family of four. Most of them choose to work part-time, and a sizeable number are married. The average older minimum wage-earner simply does not fit the stereotype of a worker living on the edge of destitution.

Here are a few important characteristics of the 47 percent of minimum wage-earners who are over the age of 24:

More than half—56 percent—work part-time jobs.
They have an average family income of $33,606 per year.
Just 23 percent live in poverty, while 45 percent have incomes over twice the poverty line.
They are better educated than younger minimum wage workers. Just 22 percent have less than a high school education, while 39 percent have only a high school diploma and 21 percent have taken some college classes.
66 percent are women.
43 percent are married.
Table 2
Minimum Wage Workers
All Hourly Workers

Proportion of
Single Parents
Working Full Time,
25 yrs and older 6.1% 6.3%

Source: Heritage Foundation calculations based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2005 Current Population Survey and merged outgoing rotation group files.

Many advocates of higher minimum wages argue that the minimum wage needs to rise to help low-income single parents. However, minimum wage workers do not fit this stereotype more than the population as a whole. [B/Just 6.1 percent of minimum wage workers over the age of 24 are single parents working full-time, compared to 6.3 percent of all hourly workers.[6][/B]

Conclusion

Many support raising the minimum wage because they want to help low-income Americans get ahead. But while some minimum wage-earners do live below the poverty line, these workers are far from representative. Only one in five minimum wage-earners lives in a family that earns less than the poverty line. Three-fifths work part-time, and a majority are under 25 years old. Minimum wage-earners’ average family income is almost $50,000 per year. Very few are single parents working full-time to support their families—no more than in the population as a whole. It is not surprising, then, that studies show that higher minimum wages do not reduce poverty rates.[7] Instead of raising the minimum wage, Congress should look at other ways to aid the working poor that actually focus on providing help to those who need it.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm1186.cfm

Ok, your turn.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Superman
My point is that the minimum wage, despite twelve increases, has fallen. It is a LOWER wage now than it was when it was $2.00 in 1973. You are pretending it has increased, and asking why this policy has failed. It's very simple. Draw whatever conclusions you like about the impact of a minimum wage REDUCTION. Don't pretend it has been increasing.

First, the minimum was has been increasing. It went from $2 to $5.15. The buying power of that dollar has fallen, but that's a different discussion, isn't it?

Again, if you are saying that we should raise the minimum wage to keep up with inflation, that is a wholly different argument from saying that you want to raise it to somehow help the poor. It won't help the poor. It might make their lives easier for a year or so until prices increase to compensate for the increase in costs. Then inflation takes hold again and you are right back where you started in a couple years.

My point is that perhaps the minimum wage increase itself accelerates inflation by increasing the costs to all of the basic products of life. Minimum wage earners are cogs in the wheels of businesses that are basic, grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, etc. Seems to me you are pouring the gasoline right on the base of the fire and then wondering why the fire grows.

[Superman]

Yawn. I am busy making a quarterly report and I've read BLS reports ad nauseum. I know what they say, and am glad you are taking a look. I stated that this crap about minimum wage workers being teenagers living with their parent is mythology. Here is a sentence from the report you posted:

"About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and slightly more than one-fourth were age 16-19."

So, at more than three-fourths of minimum wage workers are adults. It is supposed to be a "living wage." Where in the United States can somebody pay rent, get transportation, heat, lights and food for $900 per month, before taxes?

And more importantly, how am I to take your words seriously when you rail against this legislation, and at the same time decry the need for public programs that are subsidizing these employers?

[Jim Richards]

Rick, my earlier comment about which came first, the COLA (or, min. wage adjustment) or the inflation (chicken or egg) still stands. The COLA hasn't happened in 10 years, but inflation has kept marching along. Other factors have been fueling inflation. Any guesses as to what these factors are?

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Superman
Yawn. I am busy making a quarterly report and I've read BLS reports ad nauseum. I know what they say, and am glad you are taking a look. I stated that this crap about minimum wage workers being teenagers living with their parent is mythology. Here is a sentence from the report you posted:

"About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and slightly more than one-fourth were age 16-19."

So, at more than three-fourths of minimum wage workers are adults. It is supposed to be a "living wage." Where in the United States can somebody pay rent, get transportation, heat, lights and food for $900 per month, before taxes?

And more importantly, how am I to take your words seriously when you rail against this legislation, and at the same time decry the need for public programs that are subsidizing these employers?

Which public programs are you referring to? Please be specific.

Second, I think it is time to call a spade a spade. Raising the minimum wage does next to nothing to the working poor. As stated in the Heritage article, only 6% of minimum wage earners are single parents. Most of those who are over the age of 19 live in households where the household income is well above the poverty line. Over half of those people own their own homes. More than 60% have air conditioning. Raising the minimum wage might make minimum wage earners feel good for a while, maybe a year or so. But then prices MUST rise to compensate for the increased costs. I know you say that payroll is a small amount of overall cost and that might be true, I'm not an economist. However, I guarantee you that whether a company feels a large amount of pain or a small amount of pain, they will raise prices to compensate. Seems to me that many of the central cogs in our economy are run by minimum wage earners. Gas stations, grocery stores, restaurants, Walmart, etc are all staffed by minimum wage earners. Increase prices there and you feed the very core of inflation.

The ONLY thing that a minimum wage increase does is buy votes. It does not reduce poverty as has been shown multiple times. It really does not even target the group you are hoping to help. The Democrats want to raise the minimum wage to increase their support among the poor. The Republicans want to stop a minimum wage increase in order to appease their big business contributors. That's it. If raising the minimum wage actually worked to bring people out of poverty, we should just magically increase it to $50 an hour and POOF!...no more poverty.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Rick, my earlier comment about which came first, the COLA (or, min. wage adjustment) or the inflation (chicken or egg) still stands. The COLA hasn't happened in 10 years, but inflation has kept marching along. Other factors have been fueling inflation. Any guesses as to what these factors are?

I'm not an economist, but multiple factors influence inflation including interest rates and the availablility of currency in the economy. I'm not saying that the minimum wage is the primary driver of inflation, however I have not heard anything said here or elsewhere that has made me believe that when you increase costs to McDonald's via an artificial government regulation that McDonald's will not then increase the price of a Big Mac.

The bottom line for me is that I am just as interested in implementing real programs to help the poor as anyone. Raising the minimum wage just isn't one of them, though.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
The Democrats want to raise the minimum wage to increase their support among the poor. The Republicans want to stop a minimum wage increase in order to appease their big business contributors. That's it. If raising the minimum wage actually worked to bring people out of poverty, we should just magically increase it to $50 an hour and POOF!...no more poverty.

The working poor, particularly those under age 25, have a very poor voting percentage, just about the lowest of any age group. It's my opinion, based on who votes, that the Dems aren't actually targeting the working poor for vote buying potential, but targeting the soccer-mom, limosine liberals in America who vote these economically wacky programs because it makes them feel good, and they like telling others what to do, for their own good.

It's also my opinion that guys like Superman, and others in his philosopical niche, ought to concentrate their money and efforts into voluntary charitable consortiums to do what it is they claim to want to do for their target groups; the poor, the working poor, and other so-called disadvantaged people. Of course, they won't do that because it would mean giving up using force on people to "take their stuff", which they simply love doing.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by fastpat
The working poor, particularly those under age 25, have a very poor voting percentage, just about the lowest of any age group. It's my opinion, based on who votes, that the Dems aren't actually targeting the working poor for vote buying potential, but targeting the soccer-mom, limosine liberals in America who vote these economically wacky programs because it makes them feel good, and they like telling others what to do, for their own good.

It's also my opinion that guys like Superman, and others in his philosopical niche, ought to concentrate their money and efforts into voluntary charitable consortiums to do what it is they claim to want to do for their target groups; the poor, the working poor, and other so-called disadvantaged people. Of course, they won't do that because it would mean giving up using force on people to "take their stuff", which they simply love doing.

I can't do it....I just can't do it.... feeling weak...must not....

Ah screw it! +1

[Jim Richards]

Woot!

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Rick, my earlier comment about which came first, the COLA (or, min. wage adjustment) or the inflation (chicken or egg) still stands. The COLA hasn't happened in 10 years, but inflation has kept marching along. Other factors have been fueling inflation. Any guesses as to what these factors are?

More resources:
1. Defning Inflation
2. The Cultural and Spiritual Legacy of Fiat Inflation
3. Inflation and You
4. Can We Still Avoid Inflation?
5. Inflation

Inflation is caused by the Federal Government and it's monetary policies. Inflation serves the federal government.
History of Money and Banking in the United States by Murray Rothbard (1926-1995), Professor of economics, University of Nevada-Las Vegas.
Rationale of Central Banking and the Free Banking Alternative