They have NO idea of what they are messing with

[Lothar]

Originally posted by Lothar
More moral relativism from Stuart.

Stuart, why don't you answer my questions, since your so damned smart.

Stuart,

The post above was your invitation to respond.

I never made any comment for or against the actions of our military in my post. I interpreted your response as elevating the terrorist thugs to which I refer by pointing to what you believe to be a relatively greater evil. I came to such an interpretation based on your quoting me before holding up the US military as thugs. I likewise concluded that you agree with Pat's notion of freedom fighters. There in lies the moral relativism to which I refer.

To restate my point by analogy, if two criminal organizations get into a turf war, one need not be virtuous and the other purely evil. Both may well be morally reprehensible.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by snowman
Pat has no words or thoughts of his own, so he cuts and pastes garage that he does not understand.

I know. I wish FastPat understood his garage better too.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Lothar
I too have a problem with calling a bunch of thugs who kill innocent Iraqi women and children, "freedom fighters".

What virtuous freedom fighters kill innocent civilians who are burying their dead shortly after the last terrorist attack.

The French Resistance (full of communists, etc. who did exactly that), the Serb Resistance, the Bulgarian Resistance, the Polish Resistance (what there was of it, communists), and on and on. If you think Freedom Fighters in previous wars were paragons of virtue, think again.

The point is that those in Iraq who resist the invasion and occupation of the US government are in fact just as much Freedom Fighters for their country as those I listed above.

The US government in Iraq is behaving exactly like the Germans did in the european countries they occupied. Destroying whole villages to "get terrorists", killing hundreds of thousands of people, putting puppet governments in power, and sadly, much more.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by Lothar

Pat, if your country had been invaded by a fascist government, would you go plant a bomb at a church, grocery store or shopping mall to kill hundreds of your own fellow citizens in order to expel the invaders?

Pat,

This was the question I really wanted you to answer.

I'm not talking about resisting puppet governments. I'm talking about targeting innocent victims of this war. Your freedom fighters are not killing innocent civilians as unintended targets. Civilians are the primary target in many cases and it is happening on a daily basis.

How can killing innocent Iraqis help to expel American invaders? I don't see anything heroic in their actions.

[Superman]

Originally posted by snowman
The big difference is that conservatives are more mature and know what works and what doesn’t.

Tell us more. 'splain to us morons about how you're going to stomp out terrorism using our military. 'splain to us idiots how you're going to scare them into not attacking us any more. Or perhaps you're thinking the military will eradictate them all. Outline this for us and please, go really slowly and use small words. We're not familiar with mature and complex "we've got lots of bombs and guns, more than you've got, and we're going to blow your asses to smithereens" policy.

We're very impressed by this maturity, and we'll be more impressed as you explain the details. Please excuse those of us who think the terrorism problem will not be solved by this deliciously simple and convenient strategy. We're ahhhhh......awfully stupid. Just as you say.

[NICKG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JSDSKI
Force has certainly worked well so far - hope you are calmer in the cockpit than you are on the typewriter. [/QUOTE
that is ok...as long as they don't nuke chicago, afterall that is where all the good muslims are.....

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Lothar
Pat,

Pat, if your country had been invaded by a fascist government, would you go plant a bomb at a church, grocery store or shopping mall to kill hundreds of your own fellow citizens in order to expel the invaders?
This was the question I really wanted you to answer.

I'm not talking about resisting puppet governments. I'm talking about targeting innocent victims of this war. Your freedom fighters are not killing innocent civilians as unintended targets. Civilians are the primary target in many cases and it is happening on a daily basis.

How can killing innocent Iraqis help to expel American invaders? I don't see anything heroic in their actions.

I think that would depend on circumstances. Adopting the techniques used by the US government to shut down Germany wherein they bombed churches, stores, and the private homes of Germans, and now are doing that in Iraq; would require special circumstances. For example, if the southern states elected to secede again and were invaded again; blowing up quite a few things in order to deny that invader solace, privacy, and the look of secuity would have to be considered.

Iraq is a complicated situation unleashed by the US government's illegal, immoral, and illadvised militarism. You must ask and then answer; were any of these activities happening in locations where they're happening now prior to March 2003, or did they begin after March 2003; when you've answered that honestly, then you should see the Iraqi Freedom Fighters as just that.

I only consider what is working to stop the US government in its' tracks and don't care who or why they're accomplishing that. A weaker or weakened US government is good for America and that's all I care about. I do not have divided loyalties nor do I have a loyalty to any government entity, I am loyal to America and Americans only.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by stuartj
I know. I wish FastPat understood his garage better too.

I won't understand my garage until I build it.

[thrown_hammer]

"Blade: You obviously do not KNOW WHO YOU'RE ******* WITH!"

[Superman]

Well, have we figured out how to alert the terrorists that we are WAY more powerful than they are and we have bigger dicks? That we're going to just blow them all back to the Stone Age if they don't stop hating IMMEDIATELY?

Of course, that assumes that our strategy is to scare then into not attacking us any more. Is that our strategy? Or are we going to just pull a genocide thing and eradicate them all?

Perhaps Snowjob is just busy now, and he'll get us these answers when he has a moment.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by fastpat
I think that would depend on circumstances. Adopting the techniques used by the US government to shut down Germany wherein they bombed churches, stores, and the private homes of Germans, and now are doing that in Iraq; would require special circumstances. For example, if the southern states elected to secede again and were invaded again; blowing up quite a few things in order to deny that invader solace, privacy, and the look of secuity would have to be considered.

Iraq is a complicated situation unleashed by the US government's illegal, immoral, and illadvised militarism. You must ask and then answer; were any of these activities happening in locations where they're happening now prior to March 2003, or did they begin after March 2003; when you've answered that honestly, then you should see the Iraqi Freedom Fighters as just that.

Pat,

I never believed for a moment that your loyalties were divided. I've read too many of your posts.

That said, the above is the most evasive tap dance routine I've ever seen you post.

Those so-called freedom fighters are not blowing up "things", they are targeting people who are simply trying to get on with their lives in the aftermath of the invasion and ouster of Saddam. Women, children and the elderly are being targeted to destabilize the situation and create further chaos.

So, I'm not quite hearing if you are ready to kill your fellow Americans to repel those nasty invader/occupiers.

I for one, cannot see how intentionally killing a hundred of my own for every one of the enemy is a smart strategy in Iraq.

In addition, the violence against civilians is keeping American troops in the country rather than quickening their departure. The spectre of an explosion of violence and a total lack of security is the stated concern offered as justification for a troop surge. So I really don't see how killing more women shopping for food for their dinner table accomplishes much.

Given that their tactics don't seem to advance the cause of "freedom", I cannot see the people of which you speak as even remotely resembling freedom fighters.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Lothar
Given that their tactics don't seem to advance the cause of "freedom", I cannot see the people of which you speak as even remotely resembling freedom fighters.

First, you're depending on the US government for most of your information as to what the Iraqi Freedom Fighters are blowing up, and who is doing what to whom. May I suggest that any information coming from a US government source be treated with no more validity than you'd treat a statement from the German National Socialist Party in 1938.

They're advancing the cause of freedom from the US government, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only important thing for Americans.

[snowman]

Pat,
Then we should invite them to come here and fight for us.

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by Lothar
I for one, cannot see how intentionally killing a hundred of my own for every one of the enemy is a smart strategy in Iraq.

In addition, the violence against civilians is keeping American troops in the country rather than quickening their departure. The spectre of an explosion of violence and a total lack of security is the stated concern offered as justification for a troop surge. So I really don't see how killing more women shopping for food for their dinner table accomplishes much.

Given that their tactics don't seem to advance the cause of "freedom", I cannot see the people of which you speak as even remotely resembling freedom fighters.

Ok, they aren't "freedom fighters" - they're not interested in freedom, they're interested in power and money. They aren't "killing their own" - because they target different sects and tribes and they'll kill their own if they think they can blame it on the coalition troops and rile up more people. They want "troops in country" because it adds to the chaos and makes people angry enough to support insurgents (anybody but occupiers). They "kill women" for much the same reasons as all of the above. More conflict is better for the insurgents.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Lothar
Stuart,


To restate my point by analogy, if two criminal organizations get into a turf war, one need not be virtuous and the other purely evil. Both may well be morally reprehensible.

Im not sure that you can apply this analogy, but yes in the case of Iraq, both sides are commiting acts which are morally reprehensible.

And this is where many have a problem. The US lead COTW invaded Iraq, using a series of bogus justifications before settling "regime change". It is argued that "regime change" would never have cut it as a justifcation in the first instance.

In many peoples opinion, the morality of the war was flawed form the outset. You might think the COTW wears the white hats. To a lot of other people however, and not just in the ME, the COTW just looks like the Wermacht circa 1940.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by snowman
Pat,
Then we should invite them to come here and fight for us.

No, then they'd be the US government.

[Lothar]

Pat,

I don't see how a bunch of U.S. hating jihaddists really forward the cause of freedom from the US government for Americans.

In fact, many of those jihaddists are emboldening the US government to encroach on the personal freedoms of Americans under the guise of Homeland Security and the war on terror.

Iraq has become a lightning rod for Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups. So even if they weren't there prior to 2003, which is open to debate, the government can sell the idea of fighting terrorists in Iraq now, because they are there in places like Anbar Province.

The problem the US faces in fighting terrorists who wish to strike on our own soil, is that we have little or no human intelligence capabilities with which to pin point and destroy the real enemy. Many of those capabilities have been gone since the 60s.

So much of the public is content to see the US flail at terrorist organizations using infantry divisions to take out groups of 5 or 10 Al Qaeda operating in a cell, because they don't understand and don't want to know what it takes to compromise these organizations from within. We don't seem to have the right assets to combat terrorists and won't until we are willing to play the dirty game of infiltrating Al Qaeda and other organizations. To make matters worse, we needed to do that 15 to 25 years ago. It's a bit late now.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Lothar
Pat,

I don't see how a bunch of U.S. hating jihaddists really forward the cause of freedom from the US government for Americans.

In fact, many of those jihaddists are emboldening the US government to encroach on the personal freedoms of Americans under the guise of Homeland Security and the war on terror.

Iraq has become a lightning rod for Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups. So even if they weren't there prior to 2003, which is open to debate, the government can sell the idea of fighting terrorists in Iraq now, because they are there in places like Anbar Province.

The problem the US faces in fighting terrorists who wish to strike on our own soil, is that we have little or no human intelligence capabilities with which to pin point and destroy the real enemy. Many of those capabilities have been gone since the 60s.

So much of the public is content to see the US flail at terrorist organizations using infantry divisions to take out groups of 5 or 10 Al Qaeda operating in a cell, because they don't understand and don't want to know what it takes to compromise these organizations from within. We don't seem to have the right assets to combat terrorists and won't until we are willing to play the dirty game of infiltrating Al Qaeda and other organizations. To make matters worse, we needed to do that 15 to 25 years ago. It's a bit late now.

I see a part of your problem. You've apparently accepted the Bush'ist talking point of "they hate us for our freedoms".

The reasons for any attack upon America soil is purely because the US government has been meddling in mideastern business for more than 80 years. Murdering people directly or putting in other cooperative governments who then murder for the US government.

One last thing for5 you to ponder is that the US government has spent over $200 billion on the war on terrorism not including Iraq and Afghanistan. That's to fight about 5000 jihadist muslims worldwide, enough to give each of them a cash payment of about $40 million. With nothing to show for it.

[Lothar]

Originally posted by fastpat
That's to fight about 5000 jihadist muslims worldwide, enough to give each of them a cash payment of about $40 million. With nothing to show for it.

They would take the money and still attack us, given the opportunity.

There is no way to undo the past. The British, French, Dutch and former Soviets, to name just a few, have done their share of meddling as well.

So even if the US were to clean up it's international act to suit them, we will still be left with a fight.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Lothar


Iraq has become a lightning rod for Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups. So even if they weren't there prior to 2003, which is open to debate, the government can sell the idea of fighting terrorists in Iraq now, because they are there in places like Anbar Province.

what's your source on this? I'm interested where the "honeypot" theory originally came from, and who's pushing it these days...