Professional Misconduct by Realtor? Part 2 of 2

[Porsche-O-Phile]

(continued from my original post)



Here's the contentious part:

This property was originally listed at $290,000 plus 4% by the seller towards closing costs. According to the MLS listing, it had sat on the market for 83+ days at that price. Fine. No biggie. The reason it was (as John put it) supposedly the "deal of a lifetime", was because the seller (who is an agent himself, it turns out - we'll get to that) had decided to drop his price to $260,000 and pay 3% to cover closing costs. John tells us that this is because the seller (who we shall call "Ivan") is originally from Russia and wants to sell the property quickly in order to move back there with his family (when we looked at the property there were a few clues substantiating this story including some "CCCP" relics, some posters and photos, a couple of books written in Russian, etc.) "Okay", I'm thinking, "this really is a good situation - below market value, decent place with a lot of features we like, desperate seller. Good". I put together an offer that's aggressive, but not (IMO) "lowball" for $253,500, seller pays closing costs, seller pays property taxes through the end of 2007 and 1/2 of the condo HOA fees for the first year, and all appliances are included (he's moving to Russia, presumably without refrigerators and electric ranges in tow, right?) I realize (and expect) this will be countered on one or more of those points.

Yesterday, I get a call from John, saying that in fact our offer had been countered and that this guy Ivan had two other offers, so we better decide what to do quickly ("pushy salesman mode" again). I explain patiently for what must be the fifty-gazillionth time on the phone with him that there's no urgency here, if the property goes to someone else, it goes to someone else and it's not meant to be and ultimately I don't care. Undaunted, he summarizes the seller (Ivan's) "counter-offer":

$280,000 (note that this is $20,000 MORE than the listing price)
$5,000 towards closing costs (big red flag - I'll explain)
No appliances (some of the stuff is supposedly going to his son, who is now mysteriously not going to Russia but remaining in the U.S.A.)
No payment of property tax beyond the closing date (no biggie, I expected this but threw it in to see if we could get it)
No assistance with HOA fees (again, a "wish list" item and not a deal-breaker).

A bit bemused by this, I explain to John that Ivan can keep his counter-offer and we're not interested. I say this no less than a dozen times, but John keeps hounding and hounding and hounding, explaining that "it's still below his original listing price by $10,000!". I can feel my blood pressure rising as he persists with the salesman schit. Finally, unable to tolerate it any more, I take the phone call outside and start yelling - "I'm not interested at that price - what part of 'no' do you have a problem understanding?" Finally he "gets it". You can almost see the lightbulb flicker on. Or seems to. I tell him that out of fairness to my wife, I'll call her, tell her what he just told me regarding the counter-offer and see if she has anything to add other than "go pound sand", which I predict the reaction will be (like mine was). Fine. Call ends. I walk back inside, eager to get back to work.

I call my wife, who's off at lunch with a friend and not likely to answer her phone. Whatever. I leave a message and that's that. I figure I'll hear from her when I hear from her - no biggie. We'll discuss it then. As I'm getting back to working, I think about this some more and start to get a bit more and more annoyed by this "counter-offer" tactic. I know that Ivan is an agent (while we were being shown his place, I noticed a stack of business cards on his counter, so I snagged one when John wasn't looking, just in case I wanted to go directly to the seller). I also questioned whether John and Ivan knew one another (they both work in the residential real estate market in Long Beach - it can't be all that big of a world, can it?) while we were reading all the disclosure information doing the paperwork for our offer. John cut that discussion off right then and there, along with my question about whether Ivan might be low-listing his price since he doesn't have to pay a realtor a commission, since he's acting as his own listing agent. . .



My question to you guys (and gals) out there with more experience in these matters than I is whether or not there's been any professional misconduct here - either on the part of Ivan or John. I can't PROVE collusion here, nor can I prove these two guys even know each other. They work for different companies and may very well not. However, I most certainly CAN prove that the listed price was $260,000 and was countered by a price higher than that - with many more caveats and conditions. I can prove that the original listing mentioned "3%" towards costs and that the counter was $5,000, with the seller choosing the title and escrow service. (caution: conspiracy theory) My suspicion is since Ivan was an agent, he could work out a deal with a title and/or escrow company to hike up their price for services so that the closing costs would have been much higher than $5,000 (putting us on the hook for the difference), and then kicking back a percentage to him. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling that's certainly not unbelievable. I suspect that this $260,000 listing price was simply to get "foot traffic", multiple offers and (hopefully, from Ivan's point of view) a bidding war in a down-turning market. While I can on one hand respect the tactic, on another, it smacks of "bait-and-switch", which to my knowledge is illegal and may place his agent's license at risk (I'm checking).

Advice? (Obviously we're not buying this place and I'm "firing" John today and finding someone else).

[svandamme]

why not continue both in one thread?

[id10t]

Find another local realator and ignore John and Ivan both.

[Steve Carlton]

How about copying this first post into a reply on the part I thread?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by id10t
Find another local realator and ignore John and Ivan both.

Don't worry - already done. I'm just wondering if there's anything illegal or improper about "low-listing" a price deliberately with no intention of honoring it.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by Steve Carlton
How about copying this first post into a reply on the part I thread?

Good idea. I'll do that. Disregard this one.

[Jim Richards]

Unsure about misconduct, and it's highly unlikely that you could prove anything, but I agree, get a new agent that you feel good working with and listens to you. They are out there, all you need to do is schedule a couple of evenings or a weekend to interview a handful of agents. Good luck with the search for your own place.

[notfarnow]

Better yet, be sure to tell "john" that you are bidding on the house through another agent because you don't trust him.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by notfarnow
Better yet, be sure to tell "john" that you are bidding on the house through another agent because you don't trust him.

I think you nailed it. I was thinking about this a bit last night and that's the biggest issue - I DON'T trust this guy. He's given me very little to work with insofar as that goes.

I've already got two other people lined up, both of whom will be getting calls today - the only "for certain" things about this whole mess are:

(1) I'm done dealing with John and his B.S. For good. And

(2) There's no way I'm buying this place. There are plenty more out there.

[Dantilla]

Not worth any of your time of effort.

Until both sides have signed the same piece of paper, there is no deal. Everything is open for debate. There is no law that states the final price agreed on must be at or lower than asking.

It's typical for a "hot" property to get multiple offers, and some savvy buyers will throw in an escalation clause, bumping the price up to beat anybody else who made an offer above asking price.

Walk away. Put your efforts into tomorrow. Not yesterday.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Fair enough. Thanks. I'm absolutely 100% positive there are other better properties in this area for less than the $280,000 he's now demanding. His loss. Not mine. I'm in no hurry and ultimately don't care.

That said, what's stopping everyone and their brother from listing properties at a buck? Just curious.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by Dantilla
Not worth any of your time of effort.

You must not be a vengeful ba$tard like me. In my books, it's at least worth a 5 minute call and a 10 minute email.

He is accountable to someone. I'd fire off an email to John, cc'd to his RE agency, letting him you are going to pursue the property, but through another agent & agency because you don't trust him.

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by notfarnow
You must not be a vengeful ba$tard like me. In my books, it's at least worth a 5 minute call and a 10 minute email.

I learned long ago, having rental properties and investing in real estate, that there are only so many hours in the day, and I can make far more money be going after tomorrow's money instead of worrying about yesterday's.

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by notfarnow
You must not be a vengeful ba$tard like me. In my books, it's at least worth a 5 minute call and a 10 minute email.

He is accountable to someone. I'd fire off an email to John, cc'd to his RE agency, letting him you are going to pursue the property, but through another agent & agency because you don't trust him.

It sounds like you weren't totally sold on this property, and the quality of the neighborhood is important. You still have Ivan to deal with as the seller. Just fire John, walk away from this property, hire a realtor you can work with, and resume the hunt calmly. Good luck, good hunting.

[notfarnow]

Must be the Irish in me... I love a good grudge.

I still think Jeff would get TONS of satisfaction for the 15 minutes he spent firing off an email. The thought of "john" squirming at seeing the cc'd email would be a bright spot in my day.

[turbo6bar]

Find a realtor that matches your personality and needs. There should be plenty of hungry realtors in CA. After all, 2 of every 100 has a license.

I would not contact the realtor. I would not contact the seller directly. There's little to be gained by releasing some venom.

Realtors, sellers, and buyers will engage in dirty tricks and games, and it will always go on as long as participants exist. Believe me. There are plenty of a$ses to fill those seats. You'd do well to march past and do your own thing.

If you're prepared to invest a little time each day, find web sites or an email service that will show new listings. I think ziprealty.com covers your area, but I'm sure there are better soruces.

[nota]

FSBO!!!!! and do the hunt yourself!!!!

just like used cars
the dealers never have the best deals
private sellors are the way to go
you save 6% at the start
and the chance of a FSBO under pricing
is far higher then a pro agent
why people use agents is beyond me
but fools still go to used car dealers too

6% x 300k is a nice used Porsche
would you pay your car to get a agents ''help''

brokers are well named
they get rich and you get broker

[Zeke]

In a situation like this, the only thing one can do is to now work with John's employer/broker. There is a pending contract with John, like it or not. The broker can iron out the details about who gets what AFA commission.

Listing a property at a low price and waiting for the price to be bid up beyond the original asking price is a tactic used frequently by selling agents. It was more popular a year ago. These guys must be behind the times or think you are stupid.

My experience with all realtors is that they are shaky at best and scumbags at the worst. When I get a call and the person identifies himself as a realtor, I usually back away. I take each case one by one, however. But, when I do end up working for a realtor, I'm usually sorry I did, for one reason or another..

So as to not directly offend any real estate people here, let me say in their defense that realtors are most of the time involved with a transaction or management. In either case, saving money is the order of the day. When someone is selling, they want to put the least amount into "improvements" or repairs. Same with cars.

And, in both instances, I'm reluctant.

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by milt
In a situation like this, the only thing one can do is to now work with John's employer/broker. There is a pending contract with John, like it or not.

Is "John" the listing agent, or did he simply find it on the MLS service ?

[Zeke]

Doesn't matter. Once you begin the offer/counter offer process with anyone, they represent you on that property. If the listing expires and you buy the property from the seller direct, both the former listing and buyer's realtors can and will sue for the commission.
The only way around John is his broker. If he is the broker, the real estate board. Or, as many have already suggested, clear the slate and start over with all new players.