Boycot Ethynol Stop supporting the corn mafia

[gduke]

This has been a topic that I've been thinking about posting for a long time and not just because it's inferior to the petroleum products that we use in our cars and causes other issues, but because we've been badly misled by the corn growers and politicians.

First, I will not mention the issues that it causes with our cars because most on this board are well aware of them.

Ethanol is a corn bi-product produced in the heartland of our country by our good old corn growers inn order to supply the nation with a cheaper and more reliable source of energy, reducing our dependence on foreign suppliers like OPEC who control the price and supply of crude oil. The product also, keeps "Big Oil" from gouging and manipulating prices.

Unfortunatelly, the product does neither and according to independant studies and takes almost as much energy to produce as it produces and takes even more energy to produce in many other studies(not according to the corn growers research). The product doesn't reduce the consumption of energy or reduce the demand for crude products. Infact, as economies grow(especially China's) and demand more energy, there is less energy available to produce ethanol. This is espacially true when corn is used to produce the product. Sugar, however, thakes fewer steps and less energy to produce ethanol and is a good source. The Brazilians produce much of their energy as a bi-product of sugar cane and producing ethanol from sugar cane is cost effective and reduces the Brazilian demand for crude products. They have an ample supply for not only their needs, but also for export. Unfortunatlly, it competes with the ethanol produced by our corn farmers and inn order to protect them our government put a 54 cent tariff on imported ethanol.

Ethanol is cheaper than gasoline at the pump. The ethanol mix costs 10 cents less at the pump, so it saves us money, buying the mix rather than staight unleaded which the "BIG OIL" companies that manipulate the price and are earning billions each quarter are importing into our country from those Arab coutries in the Middle East that want to kill us. The real truth is that ethanol trades on the Chicago exchange at about $2.20/gal. and unleaded fuel trades at under $1.90 on the New York Merc. We save at the pump, but what about the 30-40 cent difference in price at the exchanges where both commodities trade in the open market. Who pays? We pay. Try asking your local politician to explain that to you.

And that's not the only hidden cost. Ethanol now uses 20% of the corn crop. Has anyone noticed prices going up at other places than the gas station. They are going up at the grocery stores too. The demand for ethanol has caused the price of corn to sore to $4/bushel. everything from meat to soft drinks has gone up in price. Anything that uses corn to produce including the sweeteners in soft drinks costs more and this may only be the beginning. BTW, food prices are a component of the model used to compute the consumer price index.

Let me recap the benifits that I listed above.
1) less depenance on foreign sources (LOL)
2) lower prices at the pump (Right)
3) inflation, higher interest rates, recession
4) the corn farmers will buy more $50,000 pick-ups (Detroit)
5) the golf course in Texas where the poor farmer winters and plays golf
6) the politians who support ethanol who the farmers vote for.

Do some of your own research on ethanol. You'll soon learn the ugly truth and realize like I have that it's a waste of our resources to support a program that wouldn't exist without a pay check from the government. I believe we do need an alternative to crude. But, our tax dollars need to be spent on anther source. Our politians don't care about the costs only votes. And I'm talking about both parties.

Gary

[gduke]

Coruption, pork barrel describe the ethanol program. How many other government programs are like the ethanol program? How can we continue and compete in the rest of the word if this country is run so poorly?

Fortunatelly, we can vote. The only problem is lack of choice and missinformed public.

Gary

[legion]

I have three letters to add to this discussion:

ADM

[gduke]

Yes, Chris they're not only smelling up our cities they're stealing from us.

Gary

[R Wilco]

I have worked for a major chem plant for 27 years. Because we use coal as an energy source, shudder shake all you effing greeines, we can produce ethanol for one dollar and 20. How about that boys?

[hytem]

If those SUVs in every driveway averaged 20 mpg instead of 12-15 mpg, there would not be a need for ethanol. And the demand for gas would be 25-30% lower--meaning lower pump prices. But the government has classified SUVs as "commercial" vehicles, and so exempt from car mpg rules. Those "commercial" vehicles are now in half the driveways in the country, and there has been little incentive for car companies to make them fuel efficient. That's the problem. Raising the price of corn meal and corn-on-the-cob isn't the solution.

[red-beard]

What does methanol cost per gallon made from natural gas?

[M.D. Holloway]

Yohave to give the bio plants and the ethanol plants a little break - petrochemical refining has been around for over 100 years with trillion of $$$ and millions of enginnering manhours making it very profitable. The whole bio thing is in its infantcy.

[gduke]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R Wilco
[B]I have worked for a major chem plant for 27 years.

I don't mean to offend anyone, nothing personal. One of the reasons that ethanol isn't working is because there are too many plants already and they are sprouting up everywhere in this country. When there were few plants and corn was $2/bushel, those who built plants benefited the most. Now that every co-op on the country is building one and corn is $4/bushel, who is benefiting besides the farmer? Nobody would benefit without government mandates that keep ethanol prices artificially high and government paychecks. The more the ethanol the government mandates we use the higher the cost of not only the product, but the price of corn and everything made from corn. So, the buck twenty per gallon soon becomes $1.30,$1.40,$1.50,.....etc.

Who's really the villain, big oil or the corn farmers?

Gary

[Purrybonker]

Lots of weaknesses to the ethanol argument. Strange that something so seemingly straight forward can be so divisive. The problem really always loops back to the same thing....

Excess consumptive demand for energy.

Americans simply will not break themselves of the habit, God bless them. Like in everything else, the American consumer will just keep right on consuming up 'till the bitter end. Which may be coming very soon on the heels of a debt implosion.

US used to be the world's biggest creditor - now it's the world's biggest debtor.

Ethanol is just another iteration of the same problem. It is a necessary oxygenate (replaces the dirty MBTE, as well all know) and an octane enhancer and appears to have a moderating impact on imported oil by exchanging a portion of what we burn in our engines with a renewable resource (corn or sugar, etc.) But the weaknesses are in the energy consumption needed to produce it and the government incentives or regulations needed to make it feasible for investment.

Forget the stop-gap solutions Americans - just slow down your damn consumption....

[Capt. Crunch]

Ethanol is a waste of time as long as corn is the source. Sugarcane is the way to make it. I don’t think the farms really give a crap about what the hell they are growing if it pays out. I was in the market for a hybrid piece of crap or a Flex fuel Tahoe. After extensive research on both power plants I bought a used Ford Crown Victoria that runs on CNG. Compressed natural gas is pretty cheap here in Southern California. Its right around $2 bucks..




Corn Fuel and Batteries can kiss my a$$.

JC

[Icemaster]

In agreement with Lube....

Offered without comment:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.10/ethanol.html


IT MAY SURPRISE YOU TO learn that the most promising solution to our nation’s energy crisis begins in the bowels of a waste trough, under the slotted concrete floor of a giant pen that holds 28,000 Angus, Hereford, and Charolais beef cattle. But for some time now, I’ve been searching for a renewable fuel that could realistically replace the 140 billion gallons of gasoline consumed in the US each year. And now I believe the key to producing this fuel starts with cow manure – because this waste powers a facility that turns corn into ethanol.

I’m standing on a grassy hill in the middle of an 880-acre commercial feedlot just outside Mead, Nebraska, which is a long way from my home turf of clean labs and wood-paneled conference rooms in Silicon Valley. In front of me are four open-air cattle sheds. Each is the width of a giant barn and a full half-mile in length. From up here, they look more like jumbo-jet landing strips than animal pens. Beyond the sheds are several hundred acres of cornfields, from which much of the animals’ feed is harvested.

It may look like a typical, if huge, cattle feedlot – but for the glittering white four-story structure below that resembles the Centre Pompidou in Paris. Indeed, until recently this operation just off Mead’s County Road 10 was not unlike any other finishing ground for Nebraska’s beef cattle: a last stop before the abattoir. But starting in November, Oscar Mayer will no longer be the marquee product here. A company called E3 Biofuels is about to fire up the most energy-efficient corn ethanol facility in the country: a $75 million state-of the-art biorefinery and feedlot capable of producing 25 million gallons of ethanol a year. What’s more, it will run on methane gas produced from cow manure. The super-efficient operation capitalizes on a closed loop of resources available here on the prairie – cattle (fed on corn), manure (from the cows), and corn (fed into the ethanol distiller). The output: a potential gusher of renewable, energy-efficient transportation fuel.

Of course, 25 million gallons of ethanol is a drop in the tanker when it comes to our 140 billion-a-year oil habit. And ethanol itself is a subject of controversy for all sorts of reasons. Many of the criticisms, while true in some small ways, are aggressively promoted by the oil lobby and other interested parties in an effort to forestall change. Most are myths. Challenges certainly exist with ethanol, but none are insurmountable, and – with apologies to Al Gore – the convenient truth is that corn ethanol is a crucial first step toward kicking our oil addiction. I believe we can replace most of our gasoline needs in 25 years with biomass from our farmlands and municipal waste, while creating a huge economic boom cycle and a cheaper, cleaner fuel for consumers.

Which is why this Mead, Nebraska, farm is so exciting to me: The ethanol made here is not only clean but also cheap – this is perhaps the first ethanol plant to achieve both. More important, it is an early demon_stration of the great potential of biohols – liquid fuels derived from biomass for internal combustion engines. The facility is the first data point in what I call the biohol trajectory. (See “March of the Biohols,” page 143.) Like Moore’s law, this trajectory tracks a steady increase in performance, affordability, and, importantly, yield per acre of farmland. A number of biohols appear along this performance curve, among them corn ethanol, cellulosic ethanol, higher-energy-content butanol, and other biomass-derived fuels that are even more energy-rich than butanol. We’ll see fuels with higher energy density and better environmental characteristics, and we’ll develop engines better optimized for biohols. Ethanol and the newer fuels will yield better fuel efficiency as innovations like higher compression-ratio engines make their way into vehicles. In addition, we can count on the emergence of complementary technologies like cheaper hybrid vehicles, better batteries, plug-in hybrids, and more efficient, lighter-weight cars.

But the single most critical variable in the biohol trajectory is the coming rise in the number of gallons of fuel produced per acre. As we migrate from biomass derived from corn to biomass from so-called energy crops like switchgrass and miscanthus, I estimate that biomass yield will reach 20 to 24 tons per acre, a fourfold increase. At the same time, new technologies will enable us to extract more biohols from every ton of biomass, potentially to 110 gallons per ton. The result: We’ll be extracting 2,000 to 2,700 gallons of fuel per acre (as opposed to about 400 gallons with today’s technology). With better fuels and more-efficient engines improving mileage by about 50 percent, we can safely predict a seven- to tenfold gain in miles driven per acre of land over the next 25 years. Given this biohol trajectory, a future of independence from gasoline becomes not only possible but probable. And the trajectory begins with garden-variety corn ethanol.

We learned to formulate corn ethanol way back – it’s nothing more than moonshine. What makes the E3 Biofuels facility so novel isn’t its spectacular equipment but the way the equipment is fueled. The most important structures here happen also to be the least beautiful: a pair of four-story, 4 million-gallon fuel tanks, each filled to the brim with cow manure. Historically, ethanol plants were fired by coal or natural gas. But methane, produced from manure, powers this operation. Not only do no fossil fuels go into the plant, very little pollution comes out. It’s nearly a closed energy loop (some corn has to be bought from other farms).

E3 Biofuels achieves what’s known as a positive energy balance. For every BTU of energy used to run the ethanol plant, five BTUs are produced. A typical corn ethanol plant produces 1.3 to 1.8 BTUs for every BTU of fossil fuel input, including the energy required to grow the corn. (Gasoline has half the efficiency of corn ethanol, producing 0.8 BTUs for every BTU input.)

Here in Mead, almost nothing goes to waste: Components of the corn kernel that aren’t good for ethanol – the protein – are valuable additions to the cattle feed. The biodigestor waste left after methane production from cow manure is processed to produce ammonia fertilizer for the cornfields. The system is also environmentally friendly. Normally, groundwater pollution from cattle feedlots is a serious problem. But the process of producing fertilizer from the cattle manure keeps the phosphates out of the groundwater. Significantly, the energy system also prevents the venting of methane into the atmosphere, which is notable because methane is 23 times worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Another benefit: Even under a blazing mid-August sun, I can barely smell the cattle.

[berettafan]

Nice to see not everybody in the world is buying this corn nonsense!

Higher food prices is not what i need for sure.

DC needs to quit kissing GM and Fords butts and get with the program.

Following are some steps in the program i will institute if elected:

1-Mandate lighter weight vehicles from all mfrs.
1.5-Create incentives for domestic mfrs. to use/develop lightweight materials that allow for reasonable safety and improved efficiency.
2-Stiffer CAFE stds
3-No special exceptions for SUV's. Period.
4--0- incentives for ethanol production. Let it stand on it's own.
5-Increase focus on public transportation in major metropolitan areas with possible mandated usage %'s.
6-Determine most efficient speed for big rigs to operate (fuel consumption) and enforce new limit vigorously.

I look forward to serving you all!

Erik

[hytem]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
Excess consumptive demand for energy.

Americans simply will not break themselves of the habit, God bless them. Like in everything else, the American consumer will just keep right on consuming up 'till the bitter end. Which may be coming very soon on the heels of a debt implosion.

Forget the stop-gap solutions Americans - just slow down your damn consumption....

Yes--an overly consumptive country--especially gasoline.

But it's the government's fault--mainly the Republicans, though Clinton didn't help, either--for not mandating mpg standards for trucks and SUVs--especially those used non-commercially.

And school busing hasn't helped, either, by the way. Moving kids around town with fleets of gas guzzlers just for racial reasons doesn't hack it with me. If the schools were more uniformly funded, it would be a moot point.

[hytem]

Originally posted by Capt. Crunch
Ethanol is a waste of time as long as corn is the source. Sugarcane is the way to make it. JC

Yes. Brazil has been using sugarcane as an ethanol source for gasoline with success.

There is politics behind this ethanol-corn business. You know, Senator Graessley and the farm vote.

[sammyg2]

I was going along until you stated spewing that crap about "big oil" and manipulating prices. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the energy sector.

Yes, ethanol is a scam that is meant to be a farmer's welfare.
No, it won't be popular for long. But before you get on your soap box again, make sure you are well informed on the subject you speak of.

[on2wheels52]

My dad sold a lot of corn for $1 a bushel in the '50's & '60's. What makes it so outrageous at $4 today?
Jim

[gduke]

Originally posted by sammyg2
I was going along until you stated spewing that crap about "big oil" and manipulating prices. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the energy sector.

Yes, ethanol is a scam that is meant to be a farmer's welfare.
No, it won't be popular for long. But before you get on your soap box again, make sure you are well informed on the subject you speak of.

Sammy I was being sarcastic. Oil trades in the free market, and eventhough prices are high, there's no manipulation of prices.

Gary

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by on2wheels52
My dad sold a lot of corn for $1 a bushel in the '50's & '60's. What makes it so outrageous at $4 today?
Jim

What was the cost to grow corn back then, and what does it take to grow corn today?

If ethanol was primarily used to reduce dependence on oil, we'd buy direct from Brazil.

If we wish to subsidize ethanol, let's also start programs to boost conservation. Ignoring conservation and going with ethanol is like letting a fat man eat as much diet food as he wishes, while foregoing a diet, the action netting the greatest benefit.

[jrdavid68]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
What was the cost to grow corn back then, and what does it take to grow corn today?

It sounds like you are assuming the answer will justify the nominal increase in the price of a bushel of corn over 60 years. I would be interested in the numbers too.

Additionally, oil was $10 a barrel in 1950, now it's around $60. How much did it cost to produce a barrel in 1950 and what does it cost now?