Highway Rapery - how high will they go?

[Superman]

Originally posted by Rick Lee
I will never understand how Bush and Cheney get blamed for the price of gas.

This was very predictable. Explaining away the obvious is......curious at first. By now, it's gotten sad and funny. Coincidence? Where did you go to school?

[widebody911]

Cue sammyg in 4... 3... 2... 1...

[Rick Lee]

Originally posted by Superman
This was very predictable. Explaining away the obvious is......curious at first. By now, it's gotten sad and funny. Coincidence? Where did you go to school?

If it's obvious, you should have no problem explaining it. And all of your explanations on just about every issue here in OT have not convinced me of anything other than the fact that you are wrong. Maybe this one would be easier for you. How do Bush and Cheney control the gas prices in other countries which are far higher than they are here?

[tsinger873]

It's funny people have no problem paying $8 for a pack of cigarettes, $4 for a cup of coffee, or $20 to $100 or more for a bottle of wine, but ask them to pay for something they need to use and everyone goes bananas. Start calculating the waste of your "hard earned" paycheck and cut corners where you are guilty!

[Aerkuld]

Originally posted by tsinger873
It's funny people have no problem paying $8 for a pack of cigarettes, $4 for a cup of coffee, or $20 to $100 or more for a bottle of wine, but ask them to pay for something they need to use and everyone goes bananas. Start calculating the waste of your "hard earned" paycheck and cut corners where you are guilty!

I think that's why I don't smoke, have never been in a Starbucks, and rarely spend over $12 on a bottle of wine - I'd rather drive my 911 than do any of those.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Aerkuld
Heck yes, but It doesn't make a huge difference to me with a reasonably efficient (and fun) car and average commute.

It does make a HUGE difference to the people that live in the majority of the physical land area of the US. All you guys talk about how great it would be for gas to go up because it would force "them" to drive more efficient vehicles. Well that is all fine and good for someone ridding a desk in some big city, but what about the guy out on a small farm that MUST have his big wasteful truck to be able to operate? "Just the cost of doing business" right? So really what you want is to artificially strap some poor joe with insane costs, just so that you can feel you are "making changes to be more efficient".

While I am on a rant, all you twits that proclaim the American SUV to be the root of all that is evil, please explain this.

Everyone seems to think that American trucks and SUV's are so wasteful and that imports are the "golden child". SO take the 5.7L Toyota Tundra and compare to the 6L Chevy.

Yep the American truck is sure the problem....
Compare the Nissan or Honda truck. Same story.

Check out SUV's and compare the V8 Toyota or Honda to an American SUV. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

These vehicles exist for a reason, even the imports are trying to copy them. And wow, they happen to get the same gas mileage too. That reason is NOT just because people want to be wasteful in America as much as you guys want to hate "us". Raising gas prices would not stop people from driving these vehicles. It just means there is less money for something else.

[Britwrench]

Highest volume selling vehicle in the USA is the Ford F150 pick-up and has been for several years. It's an adopted life-style and at some point change will happen.

I speak to my family in England regularly, where gas (petrol) and diesel are expensive, they know it and all manage to live reasonably good lives. Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and other both high-end and some of the not-that fuel effecient vehicle sales in the UK are doing well. Hummer is now making right-hand-drive vehicles in South Africa for the RHD market.

People know, or at least should, buy vehicles to suit there lifestyles...you pay for what you want.

[speeder]

Originally posted by tobster1911
While I am on a rant, all you twits that proclaim the American SUV to be the root of all that is evil, please explain this.

Everyone seems to think that American trucks and SUV's are so wasteful and that imports are the "golden child". SO take the 5.7L Toyota Tundra and compare to the 6L Chevy.

Yep the American truck is sure the problem....
Compare the Nissan or Honda truck. Same story.

Check out SUV's and compare the V8 Toyota or Honda to an American SUV.

No one, (other than you), said that only American-made SUVs and trucks are the problem. In fact, that Toyota is probably made in the U.S.A. (Anyone confirm this)? You get the strawman award for today, for posting the weakest SM argument.

As to the rest of what you wrote, I agree that there are people who have legitimate need for fuel-guzzling pick-up trucks. The problem is two-fold, IMO; #1 is that even farmers and construction people are conditioned to own MUCH more truck than they actually need 99.99% of the time because of the "who gives a schit" attitude from super-low oil prices. My diesel truck gets ~17-18 mpg on the highway, but it is a lot bigger than I need and I will be changing vehicles soon to something that gets approx. double the mpg. The only way that I could justify owning it now is if I tow 8k lbs. on a very regular basis or carry a ton of load in the back. I never do either.

Problem #2 is evident by the casual cross-country drive through red-state America that I took last week. At least 50% of the vehicles on the road are large SUVs or PU trucks carrying one (1) dip***** and no cargo. I'm sure that a lot of them bought or leased the Suburban after 9/11/01 when GM was giving low finance rates to artificially prop-up the U.S. auto industry and now cannot get rid of them, but the lost irony of people driving huge, unnecessary vehicles with yellow ribbon magnets on them, (made in China), while presumably supporting Bush/Cheney/Halliburton is depressing to say the least.

The bottom line is that if we were not such wasteful energy pigs there would be plenty of freed-up supply of natural resources including oil and steel, and we would not have to be so involved with the people in the crazy part of the world. I'm a typical PU truck customer who just likes having a truck for the occasional usefulness and to haul around a MC or big-screen TV or help out a friend, a Tacoma-sized truck w/ a small Cummins-type 6 cyl. TDI would suit me perfectly along with about 98% of PU customers and get 30 mpg highway. They do not build this because of cheap oil, in the past anyways.

[thrown_hammer]

Do something about it or shut up. Quit pointing fingers and blaming others. If you don't like it do something about it, if you do nothing about it learn to like it.

[Aerkuld]

As tobster pointed out there are situations where this is far from ideal, that is inevitable. I was just hypothesizing that IF gas prices were increased and IF diesel could be made more economical for the commercial sector I would guess that the majority of people would be able to make changes. There would be nothing to stop tobster's farmer from running a diesel truck for example.
Also as others have noted I am not getting at American trucks and SUV's, they are all generally excessive. Of all the trucks I see on the road I would guess that 90% of them have empty beds and one person in them. That's probably because that is the guys everyday vehicle. Sure, there are instances where that truck is utilized as a truck - maybe the guy takes his boat to the lake 10 weekends a year - but do you think that if fuel prices remain high it might work out more economical to buy a small car and maybe renting a truck for the few occasions a year he needs it?

Oops - I guess speeder beat me to the post. I keep getting interrupted with work!

[cairns]

Blaming Cheney or Bush for high gas prices is the height of stupidity. It's like blaming Democrats for the high cost of a good Chardonnay or organic food. But I guess some people are just plain morons.

I would LOVE to the gas tax increased. But I would insist that the $ derived be used exclusively for transportation- improved driver training, improved roads and highways, public transportation etc.

I believe the only thing that will force Americans into smaller more efficient cars is a higher gas tax. It has in Europe and it has in Australia, Japan and other countries. Toyota isn't selling many big SUVs at home or in Europe.

Oh and I guess Bush is responsible for the almost $10 per gallon I recently paid in Austria too. For those who don't know Halliburton bought Austria. I saw Cheney there in a Nazi uniform. With his shotgun. Shooting little children and puppies.

BTW do you know which Vice-President gives almost 80% of his income to charity? For causes like helping inner city families and ensuring their children get a better education?

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by speeder
No one, (other than you), said that only American-made SUVs and trucks are the problem. In fact, that Toyota is probably made in the U.S.A. (Anyone confirm this)? You get the strawman award for today, for posting the weakest SM argument.

Strawman eh? That is all that we ever hear on this forum when the word SUV comes up. Do I need to quote some for you?

Originally posted by speeder
Problem #2 is evident by the casual cross-country drive through red-state America that I took last week. At least 50% of the vehicles on the road are large SUVs or PU trucks carrying one (1) dip***** and no cargo. I'm sure that a lot of them bought or leased the Suburban after 9/11/01 when GM was giving low finance rates to artificially prop-up the U.S. auto industry and now cannot get rid of them, but the lost irony of people driving huge, unnecessary vehicles with yellow ribbon magnets on them, (made in China), while presumably supporting Bush/Cheney/Halliburton is depressing to say the least.

You base your "bashing" of people on one glimps of them as you drive by? How do you know they are not on their way back from taking 10 kids to soccer? That they have a horse trailer they just dropped off? And I put up strawmen...

Originally posted by speeder
The bottom line is that if we were not such wasteful energy pigs there would be plenty of freed-up supply of natural resources including oil and steel, and we would not have to be so involved with the people in the crazy part of the world. I'm a typical PU truck customer who just likes having a truck for the occasional usefulness and to haul around a MC or big-screen TV or help out a friend, a Tacoma-sized truck w/ a small Cummins-type 6 cyl. TDI would suit me perfectly along with about 98% of PU customers and get 30 mpg highway. They do not build this because of cheap oil, in the past anyways.

Ding, ding, ding. My "strawman" is proved right by the end of your post.

Originally posted by Tobster1911
That reason is NOT just because people want to be wasteful in America as much as you guys want to hate "us". Raising gas prices would not stop people from driving these vehicles. It just means there is less money for something else.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Aerkuld
As tobster pointed out there are situations where this is far from ideal, that is inevitable. I was just hypothesizing that IF gas prices were increased and IF diesel could be made more economical for the commercial sector I would guess that the majority of people would be able to make changes. There would be nothing to stop tobster's farmer from running a diesel truck for example.
Also as others have noted I am not getting at American trucks and SUV's, they are all generally excessive. Of all the trucks I see on the road I would guess that 90% of them have empty beds and one person in them. That's probably because that is the guys everyday vehicle. Sure, there are instances where that truck is utilized as a truck - maybe the guy takes his boat to the lake 10 weekends a year - but do you think that if fuel prices remain high it might work out more economical to buy a small car and maybe renting a truck for the few occasions a year he needs it?

Oops - I guess speeder beat me to the post. I keep getting interrupted with work!

You take a much more reasonable, civil approach so I will do the same.

What people are not comprehending is that UNLIKE the majority of us on this board, these people are driving that big truck because they need it and CAN NOT afford to have a second "economy" car as well. They can only buy one vehicle! I was in this position myself and I would sell everything else beside my truck if it came back down to it. The versatility and usefulness just can't be matched outside the city. Renting is not an option...

[Eric 951]

If everyone doesn't mind paying much more for everyday products, then by all means jack up the price of gasoline to 10.00/gallon---then wait and see how much more a gallon of milk, sheet of plywood, or pretty much any consumer product costs. The frieght and mfg. costs from the increased prices--even the cost to build the mfg. facilities will ALL increase--and that increase will be passed through to the consumer.

(They do make the 'Yota trucks/SUVs in indiana--we helped build the plant)

[cairns]

Funny how Europe gets by. Their food prices are a bit higher in some countries but generally comparable to ours.

I do own a gas chugging SUV BTW. It tows the P-car to the track. Where I use even more gas.

[Aerkuld]

Originally posted by tobster1911
You take a much more reasonable, civil approach so I will do the same.

What people are not comprehending is that UNLIKE the majority of us on this board, these people are driving that big truck because they need it and CAN NOT afford to have a second "economy" car as well. They can only buy one vehicle! I was in this position myself and I would sell everything else beside my truck if it came back down to it. The versatility and usefulness just can't be matched outside the city. Renting is not an option...

Thanks tobster, I'll take that as a compliment.

I see your point, but here is an example. Assume my ex-wife wants a seven seater SUV. Her basis for this is that her family visit twice a year and it's nice to be able to all go out together in one car. The rest of the year she drives herself and two boys around. Figure on an average of 12k mile per year at 16mpg for the SUV. That’s 750 gallons a year and at $3 a gallon we’re looking at $2250.
Now lets assume that instead of the SUV she buys a small car. 12k miles a year at 32mpg works out at only 375 gallons a year and at $3 a gallon comes to $1125. If she can’t rent a car twice a year for the remaining $1125 then I’m a chimpanzee.
I’m not even figuring in purchase price, insurance, vehicle tax etc, so the real savings will probably be even greater.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by cairns
Funny how Europe gets by. Their food prices are a bit higher in some countries but generally comparable to ours.

Funny how Europe could fit inside a few of our western states. What works there does not necessarily work here. Population density and distances are very different. But Europe... is a bad argument IMO.

[Aerkuld]

Originally posted by tobster1911
Funny how Europe could fit inside a few of our western states.

...and you could fit a couple of their cars inside some of ours.

[cairns]

OK let's try Australia- does that work? They pay huge taxes on foreign vehicle purchases as well as high gas taxes.

But please note I don't disagree that the costs of transportation increases will have some effect on all commodities which are shipped by truck- they have to. I just don't think it will be near as draconian as some might believe.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Aerkuld
Thanks tobster, I'll take that as a compliment.

I see your point, but here is an example. Assume my ex-wife wants a seven seater SUV. Her basis for this is that her family visit twice a year and it's nice to be able to all go out together in one car. The rest of the year she drives herself and two boys around. Figure on an average of 12k mile per year at 16mpg for the SUV. That’s 750 gallons a year and at $3 a gallon we’re looking at $2250.
Now lets assume that instead of the SUV she buys a small car. 12k miles a year at 32mpg works out at only 375 gallons a year and at $3 a gallon comes to $1125. If she can’t rent a car twice a year for the remaining $1125 then I’m a chimpanzee.
I’m not even figuring in purchase price, insurance, vehicle tax etc, so the real savings will probably be even greater.

By renting not being an option, I don't mean only financially. I don't even know where I could rent a car within 30 miles from where I grew up. Also you don't "work" a rented truck like you do your own. Availability issues, ect.

In your case, would your wife never take the boys to activities with their friends saving other parent having to drive as well? You don't have a dog that goes with you camping or whatever? Try fitting 4 people, 1 dog, and all your gear for 3days in a car. Rent again? How many times until it is not monetarily practical? How about if you have 4 boys like my sister-in-law?

I am all for economical transportation, as long as it is practical. I am fortunate that I can afford a daily driver that gets 18 city / 30 highway as well as my truck. But like I said, if it came down to only affording one....