Today's Rant - Red Light Cameras (Automated Revenue Generator$)

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Yep, MY CAR (note that I'm not admitting to being the driver here) got snapped yesterday whilst making a left turn started ON A YELLOW (and yes, I'm 100% positive of this). I haven't gotten a "congratulations, you're invited to pay the state another $376" notice yet, but I suspect it'll be showing up in the next few days. So I need advice, guidance and (if anyone here can offer it) legal counsel.

I'm sure the usual rants/gripings/furious anger/impassioned discussion about how these things are illegal, do nothing to enhance safety, etc. will come up in this thread, that's not my primary point in posting this; mostly I'm looking for good advice to arm myself with, because I'm most certainly going to fight this with every fiber of my being.

I'm mad as hell about it and if I DO get cited, I'm looking at jacked-up insurance premiums, which I actually find even more offensive than the red light cameras (I did a traffic school about 6 months ago, so I'm not eligible to simply dismiss the points that way, unfortunately, so a rough-and-tumble gritty fight is in order). I'm more than ready (and willing) to raise holy hell about this and refuse to lie down. I'm not going to be like so many others that simply say "it's not worth it", bend over, grab their ankles and take their state-mandated dickings. Not this guy.

That said, I'm looking for online resources, lawyers (if anyone here is a lawyer, please PM me), etc.

I've already downloaded the statute from DMV website and a few other key items in preparation for battle. Here's what I've found thus far (I especially like the Ticket Assassin web site - seems to have very good advice, might be a good resource for others in similar boats):

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_5.htm
http://www.redlightcameraticket.com/long-beach-red-cameras.html
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/01/116.asp
http://ticketassassin.com/autoenf_toc.html



I find it particularly irritating that Long Beach is listed as the second-worst offending municipality in terms of percentage of red-light camera tickets issued within ONE SECOND of a light change (84%, third source above). The reasonable inferences that can be made on that statistic alone speak volumes about the priorities at work here. . .

The intersection in question was Bellflower & Willow (first one listed on the second site above). It'd be nice if a reviewer looked at the pictures and determined that I entered the light on a yellow and just round-filed it, but the more I dig, the more obvious it becomes to me that this really IS about revenue and I suspect any sort of "due diligence" review is a sham/token gesture at best.



It's go time. Impart to me your battle wisdom, oh ye Pelicans!

[john70t]

Go back and make a video of the stoplight at different times of the day. If the yellow timing is short of basic minimums, especially during rush hour, this may be a public hazard which is directly responsible for accidents and has given you severe emotional distress that requires compensation.
Best 'o luck with the brick wall.

[StevoRocket]

We have more cameras than you have burger bars - get used to the idea - they are here to stay - and speed cameras and average speed cameras and cameras in cop cars and cameras in supermarkets and malls.
This is only going to get worse world wide. France used to be relatively camera free but not anymore.
A recent survey by our camera loving councils revealed that most people slowed down near the camera to less than the limit - then speeded up to more than the limit immediately afterwards (proving that they are totally useless) - so their response is to put another camera down the road so they can catch the people as they speed up again.

[on-ramp]

you're gonna waste all this time just to save a couple hundred dollars? just let it go.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

It's more than a couple hundred bucks. It's $376 for the citation (if I'm cited) and about $1,500 in increased insurance premiums. That's well worth fighting for.

[Rick Lee]

Cameras were here in VA and then got abolished because they increased accidents and it was proven that counties shortended yellow light times to increase revenue. So no, they're not necessarily here to stay.

$376 is about 5x more than any such ticket here used to run for that stuff. I'd fight this to the death. Don't let them get away with it. In the meantime, buy some Photoblocker and spray it on all your license plates.

[kang]

If the pictures show you entered during the yellow, which you say you are 100% positive of, you have nothing to worry about. Was there someone behind you? Perhaps that’s who got snapped.

If you actually entered during the yellow, and you are the one the camera was shooting, I suspect there is a high likelihood that someone will round file it, as you suggest. If not, and you get a picture in the mail showing you entered during the yellow, you can file a “trial by declaration” or something to that effect. You put your arguments in writing, along with the picture, and mail it in. If the picture shows you entered during the yellow, you will win, and the case will be dismissed. Again, nothing to worry about.

I know people gripe about red light cameras, and I tend to agree. My thoughts are where do we draw the line of what the government can snap a picture of? On the other hand, red light runners are the number one cause of accidents… By and large, traffic laws are for our safety (yes, sometimes they go overboard). When I think about personal safety, the number one place I am likely to get injured is on the road. I am all for traffic laws that will increase this safety, even if it might mean revenue generation for the municipality.

I don’t understand the gripe about one second. It makes absolute sense that most red light violatios occur very shortly after the light turns red. You don’t see people running a red light 30 seconds after it turns, do you? Or even 10 seconds? Long Beach is a bit higher than average (84 versus 77), but perhaps that just means more people in Long Beach are in a hurry?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The car actually has smoked license plate covers (for looks, not to run red lights). They might actually work to my detriment if a cop looks at the pictures and thinks "here's a person that is deliberately trying to break the law" versus someone with no such covers. They look great on the car though, so until some cop pulls me over and tells me to take 'em off, they're staying.

Unfortunately my car was the last one in the queue for the left turn. Positive it was my car that got snapped. The car ahead was dragging its arse a bit so the driver of my car had to gun it a bit to get through and avoid sitting at that light for another 5 minutes, but definitely entered the intersection on the yellow.

The photoblocker stuff doesn't do schit. Mythbusters proved it, unless you know something I don't. . .

A static photo showing a car in the middle of an intersection with a red light displayed doesn't tell the whole story. The light could have been green, yellow OR red when the vehicle entered the intersection. According to what I'm reading on TicketAssassin, the report that comes up indicates the amount of time that elapsed between the red light and the picture. Then (supposedly) someone has to apply a little judgement/logic to determine if it's likely the vehicle entered on a yellow or red.

If this were about fairness/safety, they'd simply use video. Then it'd be clear as day who was entering the intersection on a yellow (legal) and who was entering it on a red (illegal). Draw your own conclusions about why these municipalities don't use video, but instead play this B.S. game with static imagery (and don't tell me it's system cost - that's a pittance).

[the]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
So I need advice, guidance and (if anyone here can offer it) legal counsel.

Here's your advice.

You haven't received any ticket. You may never receive a ticket. Or you may get struck by lightening or hit by a truck before you get it, in which case it won't matter.

Don't worry about it, there's nothing to do at this time.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Let's see. . .

(1) Be proactive, realize that this city/state cares about one thing and one thing only - MONEY. Expect the citation to show up and don't be caught off-guard by it. Be ready to take the bull by the horns and kick some ass.

(2) Sit around doing nothing and be a reactive lump. Trust in the behind-closed-doors "due process" of a FOR-PROFIT third-party contractor (who only gets paid for "guilty" findings, by the way) to objectively review my situation.

I get what you're saying, but I'm more inclined to go with #1 tankuvewwymuch. Long Beach California pass up a chance to stick their cock up the ass of a taxpayer to get a free $400?!?! Are you schitting me? What color is the sky on your planet? You SERIOUSLY think they'd miss that opportunity? Man, I admire your idealism and Polyanna-ish view of the world. I guess I'm just a bit more cynical (or perhaps realistic) here.

I'll wager you $100 I get a citation out of this (win-win for me, it's cheaper than the ticket, right?) I know a thing or two about how this city works. They absolutely, positively will not pass up an opportunity to f*ck people over if it means more $$$ in the coffers. All else is secondary. Welcome to Kalifornia.

[VINMAN]

Revenue generators. Period.
They do nothing for safety. They cause more rear end collisions than anything else.

[the]

you won't be caught off guard by the ticket. you'll have plenty of time to respond.

but if you want to get worked up before you even get the ticket, no prob.

[masraum]

If the fighting doesn't work, then ask for Deferred adjudication/deferred disposition. It's even better than taking Defensive Driving. You do pay, usually almost as much as the ticket, but then as long as you don't get CONVICTED on a ticket in the next 3-6 months (time set by court) the ticket goes away as if it had never been there. They get their money and your insurance is safe.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by masraum
If the fighting doesn't work, then ask for Deferred adjudication/deferred disposition. It's even better than taking Defensive Driving. You do pay, usually almost as much as the ticket, but then as long as you don't get CONVICTED on a ticket in the next 3-6 months (time set by court) the ticket goes away as if it had never been there. They get their money and your insurance is safe.

Now THAT is some great advice, if it's a real option. Thanks - I'll look into it.

[kang]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
A static photo showing a car in the middle of an intersection with a red light displayed doesn't tell the whole story. The light could have been green, yellow OR red when the vehicle entered the intersection. According to what I'm reading on TicketAssassin, the report that comes up indicates the amount of time that elapsed between the red light and the picture. Then (supposedly) someone has to apply a little judgement/logic to determine if it's likely the vehicle entered on a yellow or red.

Is this true? I’ve seen a couple of red light camera pictures (not me) and they both clearly showed the car before it entered the intersection AND a red light. There is a sequence of photos. The first shows the car before entering the intersection and the red light. The next couple of photos show the car in the intersection and the red light. There were a couple of close ups of the driver and the license plate.

There is an example on this page: http://tinyurl.com/2epnaz

In the left photo, the sedan on the left is clearly behind the line and the light is clearly red. In the photo on the right, it is clearly in the intersection.

There is another example here: http://tinyurl.com/2flt6j

[Rick Lee]

The folks who enter the intersection after the light has turned red should get nailed. That's dangerous stuff. But when there's not a left turn arrow and you have to get into the middle of the intersection and wait until it's clear, sometimes you can get caught there when the light turns red. It's happened to me, especially when oncoming cars turn without signaling, so I didn't know I could go until it was too late.

And as a motorcyclist, I do not do panic stops for yellow lights, especially when there are cars behind me or the road is at all damp. I had to do this yesterday and the light was yellow when I crossed into the intersection. But it had been yellow for a while before then and I knew it would be turning red shortly after I entered. But I swear, every single car I saw yesterday had a cell-phone chatting driver and I was not about to risk getting hit the idiot behind me by doing a hard stop before the intersection.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I wholeheartedly agree. Nobody's defending someone flagrantly blowing a red light or using a "two second rule" to justify going through a red. I'm just saying (as in my case) that there are certainly extenuating circumstances that a simple photo (or even a sequence of them) can never capture. A trained police officer watching the situation can (and hopefully does) exercise some discretion and factor in the circumstances. A "process" like this is designed to deliberately and systematically exclude this. That's a BIG problem, in my book and all the more reason I feel obligated to fight this tooth-and-nail.

Hell, I'd even pay $3,000 in legal fees (or more) against a $2,000 cost to "just take it" because I don't agree with the premise of this. Stupid? Hardly. I consider it an investment in defending the few civil liberties we have left in this country.

When due process starts getting put up for bid and outsourced and relegated to "closed door" sessions, we've got a problem.

[scottmandue]

I concerned that with the proliferation of these stoplight cameras can speeding cameras be far behind? I'm a technician for heavens sake electronic devices go out of adjustment... THAT'S HOW I MAKE A LIVING... time, temperature, dirt, vibration will affect any circuit (how many time have you gone by one of those "your speed is" electronic signs and it was malfunctioning?). If we let this go thousands of us will be paying fines for infractions that never occurred.

"There here to stay... get used to it..." so when they want to put a camera in you living room you'll be okay with that?

[HardDrive]

This ***** pisses me off. Just this morning I approached an intersection with a red light camera, and the light turned yellow. I was probably going around 45mph. Do you do the SAFE thing, and cross? Or smash the brakes in your sports car, stop, and hope to god the guy in the 74 Eldorado behind you can stop in time. Well I stopped, because I didn't want the ****** ticket. Scared the snot out of me.

[genrex]

Here in Seattle, a red-light ticket is $101, and I've heard that it's basically the same as a parking violation, i.e. that it doesn't go on one's driving record. So no jump in the insurance premium?



But they scare the carp out of me.