520 Floating Bridge

[genrex]

Oh, man.. small accident in one lane of the 520 eastbound bridge during rush hour yesterday. The traffic on 520 east got backed up all the way to I-90 and beyond, and the traffic in Montlake wasn't moving. All it takes is one small accident on 520 to cause a huge mess. It would help to build more lanes on 520; we need at least one more lane in each direction.

The exemption for Mercer Islanders to drive single-occupant vehicles in the HOV lanes of the M-I bridges should be amended. The wealthy ("on paper!") Islanders do that for free because of their political clout. I've lived on the island, and I know the residents have a strong sense of entitlement, but seriously, every single-occupant vehicle in the HOV lanes of those bridges should pay a fee.

What was the question again?

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
For the record, I'm alll for more roads, fixing roads, adding cool new bridges...

Unless tax dollars are used to pay for it, in which case you are opposed? And other caveats?

Originally posted by island911
It's just that I'm getting tired of the political spin of "it will fall in the next earthquake. . . so lets raise taxes, or else." The political spin here, is out of control.

I'm still waiting for that link. You're an engineer. Perhaps you personally have studied the seizmic posture of the 520 bridge and the Viaduct and all the bridge piers that have been sleeved with steel. This, according to you, is an elaborate ruse. If so, then it makes sense that you know about the lying since somebody, SOMEBODY (plural) would have published the antidote to all these lies that are so obvious to you. Clearly, either there is data that shows you that.......or you're talking out your ass.

So....bring on the data.

[Superman]

I found this article. It sounds like there is a mathematical model (obviously a ruse by liberals) used to score bridges. The bridge is built on fill. There are many instances of spalling and exposed reinforcing steel.

Magnolia Bridge in 'intolerable condition'
Even after repairs, there will be structural deficiencies

Friday, June 8, 2001

By GEORGE FOSTER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

The Magnolia Bridge was rated in "intolerable condition" years before the Feb. 28 earthquake buckled its braces. And the span will end up in basically the same condition -- even after a $3 million repair job to be completed this summer, city engineers say.

That's because the city has enough money only to repair new damage -- not to overcome structural deficiencies responsible for the bridge's poor rating.

For example, the bridge "could have come down" in a stronger quake, said Kurt Jones, who is heading the emergency repairs. And the bridge, built on fill where the wetlands of Smith Cove once extended, will still be vulnerable to severe shaking when it reopens by Aug. 2.

The span will be safe enough to sustain its average weekday load of 18,600 vehicles, but cracks, chips and deterioration will continue to require maintenance, said Richard Miller, director of roadway structures for Seattle Transportation.


COMPLETED: 1930; expanded 1958.
OVERALL LENGTH: 3,008 feet.
REPAIR AREA: 1,100 feet.
TRAFFIC: 18,600 vehicle trips weekdays.
The bridge's ongoing problems don't sit well with the Magnolia community, which has endured two long repair-related closures in the past four years.

"I think it should be replaced immediately," said Keith Butts, a Magnolia Hardware Store employee, adding that his confidence in the bridge has changed since the quake.

And Jose Montano, a retired architect and past president of the Magnolia Community Club, said it's time to pursue "another means of access" to the neighborhood, preferably a new road linking the bridge extension to Thorndyke Avenue West.

The current emergency repairs, financed partly by the Federal Highway Administration, cover only earthquake damage.

Similarly, a $4.7 million fix four years ago merely addressed damage from a January 1997 mudslide. That project, which closed the span for four months, included repairing the bridge's footings and building a retaining wall to prevent more slide damage.

City officials say a new bridge is needed in the next 10 to 12 years, but it's tough finding the $60 million to $80 million to build it.

Since 1992, the bridge has been inadequate to barely adequate for moving traffic across the lowlands separating Queen Anne Hill and Magnolia, a Post-Intelligencer review of bridge inspection records found.

Between 1992 and 1996, data fed into a complicated structural appraisal formula turned up a rating of "3," meaning "basically intolerable condition requiring a high priority of repair," according to the ratings under the National Bridge Inspection Standards.

From 1997 on, the bridge received a rating of "4," described as "meeting minimum tolerable limits to be left in place as is."

But Miller said yesterday the bridge's condition did not actually change between the "3" and "4" ratings. He attributed the difference to a quirk in the computing of data.

He also said the word "intolerable" is misleading when applied to the 3,008-foot Magnolia Bridge.

"It's not the word we would have chosen," he added. "We have (maintenance) programs to take care of the worst problems. We would not have a bridge open if we didn't feel it was safe."

Bridge inspectors adhere to national bridge standards developed by the Federal Highway Administration. Prescribed data, such as substructure, deck and other superstructure conditions as well as traffic and vehicle weights, are programmed through a standard formula.

The inspection sheets since the early 1990s mention extensive cracking and spalling -- the chipping away of concrete -- sometimes severe enough to expose reinforcing steel.

An inspection report in May recorded 85 cracks and 116 cases of spalling up to five feet in length where reinforcing steel was exposed. That's not unusual for a bridge of that length and age, said Miller.

He added that the structural rating system "tries to take into account all conditions ... but we do not always agree with the conclusions."

Harvey Coffman, the state's bridge preservation engineer, agreed with Miller that a "3" rating does not necessarily mean the bridge is unsafe. "It depends on the circumstance of the structure and what they have programmed" for repairs or replacement, he added.

Still, the Magnolia Bridge is one of two larger bridges the city is continually concerned about, Miller said. The other is the approach to the Fremont Bridge, built in 1917. In both cases, the city has held off seismically retrofitting the spans because building new structures would be more cost-effective than refurbishing the older ones.

Miller noted that the Magnolia Bridge is exposed to "one of the harsher environments" -- a prevailing south-to-southwest wind off Puget Sound carrying corrosive salt. This salty air, he added, hastens deterioration of concrete and steel reinforcement.

The bridge was constructed in the late 1920s and helped to open for development what was then the sparsely populated "Magnolia District." Until 1960, it was called the Garfield Bridge.

In the late 1950s, an extension of the bridge was built over 15th Avenue West and has received higher ratings for structural soundness than the 1930 bridge.

Westbound traffic on the bridge must now exit at the ramp for the Elliott Bay Marina. Through traffic must detour around Dravus Street.

The entire bridge was originally due to reopen for traffic by Aug. 2, but Seattle Transportation spokeswoman Marybeth Turner said yesterday it is expected to reopen earlier.


REPAIRING MAGNOLIA BRIDGE DAMAGE



The Feb. 28 earthquake damaged support column braces along a 1,100-foot stretch of the Magnolia Bridge. It will cost $3 million to repair the damage, which has closed the bridge to vehicle traffic for the last three months. The bridge is scheduled to open in August.

Support column cross section
Steel rebar beams within the braces stretched and buckled -- breaking through their concrete casing -- when the bridge swayed during the quake. The braces are being replaced and reattached to the support columns with metal cuffs.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At any rate, this seems to be quite an elaborate hoax. A large number of engineers are involved. And of course, these projects are costing the taxpayer billions of dollars in wasted tax money. So, I hope to see those links as quickly as possible, so we can prosecute the thousands of people who are pretending to believe our bridges and other structures are inadequate just because they were built, as in this case, seventy years ago. Here is the link. There are some good pictures and drawings (obviously faked and retouched, of course). Some of you will want to have your tin foil hats on when you click:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/26591_magnolia08.shtml

[island911]

"according to you, is an elaborate ruse."

When did I say it was elaborate?

Supe, ALL of the "ready to crumple" bridges are still open to traffic.

Oh wait, Since you seem to KNOW that they are ready to crumble and fall, I think that you had better launch an investigation in to who is being so criminally neglegent to allow them to carry traffic. --For CLEARLY I am wrong about politicians overstating the danger in pursuit of even more tax dollars. Good Grief. .. was it Nickles who announced "the viaduct is AN INCH AWAY FROM TOTAL COLLAPS" hokay then...

[island911]

Originally posted by genrex
Oh, man.. small accident in one lane of the 520 eastbound bridge during rush hour yesterday. The traffic on 520 east got backed up all the way to I-90 and beyond, and the traffic in Montlake wasn't moving. All it takes is one small accident on 520 to cause a huge mess. It would help to build more lanes on 520; we need at least one more lane in each direction.

The exemption for Mercer Islanders to drive single-occupant vehicles in the HOV lanes of the M-I bridges should be amended. The wealthy ("on paper!") Islanders do that for free because of their political clout. I've lived on the island, and I know the residents have a strong sense of entitlement, but seriously, every single-occupant vehicle in the HOV lanes of those bridges should pay a fee.

What was the question again?

I agree that 520 needs more lanes.

Mercer Island residendents have the cost of a canyon o'hwy across the island.

I remember once being pissed about the prego woman who claimed her unborn as the second carpool occupant . . but really, those lanes are so under utilized MORE traffic should be allowed. Of course people will be people . . and stupidly want to put the smack down on those who get to use faster lanes . . and stupidly force EVEN more traffic into the congestion that they are stuck in.

Sound transit wants to have exclusive use to those lanes. --what a freakishly HUGE waist of urban hwy. ...but atleast the congested will have more company.

[911boost]

The Roads in the greater Seattle area suck such major ass. If you don't have 2 people in the car you are screwed with all of the HOV lanes. I am all for HOV lanes, just not all damn day long.

On a side note, I pay $5 a day for the toll to avoid traffice and save time to get to work (E470, Northwest Parkway).

Bill

Edited to also ***** about how damn slow the baggage claim area is at the Seattle Airport. I mean come on, how the heck can it take so long?

[legion]

Originally posted by BSiple
Edited to also ***** about how damn slow the baggage claim area is at the Seattle Airport. I mean come on, how the heck can it take so long?

Maybe the baggage handlers' union has gotten outrageous concessions and being secure in their employment, are no longer motivated to act expediently?

[teenerted1]

Originally posted by BSiple


Edited to also ***** about how damn slow the baggage claim area is at the Seattle Airport. I mean come on, how the heck can it take so long?

thats cause the handlers are busy punching holes in planes...

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
[BSupe, ALL of the "ready to crumple" bridges are still open to traffic.

[/B]

Indeed. The decision to close a bridge for safety reasons is a pretty momentous decision. How much risk do you accept? The engineers who have evaluated these structures, in some cases have concluded that while they are successfully carrying traffic today, there is a legitimate danger that some of them could see fairly catastrophic failure in the event of an earthquake. That, Island, is why they are being targeted for upgrade or replacement, and it is also a simple explanation of why they are currently allowed to carry traffic. Now.....between your hysterical remarks, perhaps you could share with us the objective evidence you have which leads you to the conclusion that these structures are just fine the way they are and do not need upgrading or replacement.

The link, Island. The link. Is there anybody besides you who feels these conclusions are deliberate hoaxes, and especially I hope to hear from someone with more than subjective innuendo. An engineer would NEVER make hasty conclusions, and especially not without some data.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
. .. , in some cases have concluded that while they are successfully carrying traffic today, there is a legitimate danger that some of them could see fairly catastrophic failure in the event of an earthquake. . . .

Yeah . . . and the SpaceNeedle may tip in the next earthquake too. Of course, the amount of tip may be only a fraction of a degree. Yet still, the SpaceNeedle might TIP in the next earthquake !!! OMG quick, we need a study to figure out how to install outrigger braces on the SpaceNeedle . .. er . . oh wait . .. that's a privately owned structure.


So Supe, since you really don't want to read what Ive been saying about the politics here, let me ask you; What is the expected failure mode of the 520 bridge, should we get hit whith one of those 1000 year quakes?

Will it:
-Settle slightly in the mud, 1 degree out of spec.?
-jamb the opening span causing a violation of maritime right-of-way to very tall ships (that haven't been seen on the lake for years, btw) ?

hmmm, since it is made up of a bunch of floating sections, perhaps the 1000 year quake will break loose some sections, which will have to be barged back in place. (?)

You tell me Supe.

Maybe, if tax dollars aren't raised (for an unspecified replacement plan) the next earthquake will cause the bridge to EXPLODE, like StHelens, and cover the region with a layer of 520-bridge dust.

[HardDrive]

Originally posted by island911

Maybe, if tax dollars aren't raised (for an unspecified replacement plan) the next earthquake will cause the bridge to EXPLODE, like StHelens, and cover the region with a layer of 520-bridge dust.

Coooooooooool. Maybe the bridge contains anthrax.

[island911]

Touche', HD.

That's kinda the irony here. SUper(liberal)man can see the politics o' fear card if GW plays it, but if a money-grubbing Dem plays the fear card....

[Superman]

I sounds like you haven't actually looked into what the engineers are saying. One of the things they fear is failure of the tall, round piers at the Western end. The Western end of the bridge is NOT floating. It is elevated quite a distance over the water using piers. Concrete piers. The piers would fail, they say, mainly at the top. Where they connect with the bridge deck. There are some other problems too, but this is the most catastrophic potentially.

At any rate, I'm not sure I'll get anything more out of this discussion. I was hoping to get some actual information. I can see you have a personal belief, based on no actual facts, that everyone is lying and these findings are part of an elaborate hoax involving many many people and organization. Okay. Thank you for your unsupported opinion.

It's just possible that some of these decades-old concrete and steel structures do in fact need attention. Just because my 911 can zip through an autocross course does not mean it's ready to take to Peru. In fact, my clutch needs attention which is why I will drop the engine this evening. That's an analogy. If I ignored it, which appears to be your best idea, I could be stranded on the side of the road with a tow bill. It's cheaper to address the problem now, in this way. Same with transportation infrastructure stuff.

But then, it sounds like you're not placing a great deal of weight on facts and data here.

[Superman]

Originally posted by island911
Touche', HD.

That's kinda the irony here. SUper(liberal)man can see the politics o' fear card if GW plays it, but if a money-grubbing Dem plays the fear card....

We now know about the "data" used by your president to justify the Iraq decision. The decision was a resounding success and we have those WMD placed safely in American hands now.

With this bridge thing, there have been studies. It is reviewable. I have asked whether any organization has done counter-studies that support Island's conclusions. And I'm still waiting.

In the meantime, you guys keep a sharp eye out for that 520 bridge explosion.

[island911]

Originally posted by Superman
....you're not placing a great deal of weight on facts and data here.

Yep, I'm only matching the facts and data that you provide. (read: zero)

Supe, on your "expert engineers" Opinions. . . they dont' happen to work for the State (or POS, city whatever) ?

As what happened with the viaduct, is happening to the 520 bridge. The politicians latch on to DOOM of a State engineers Opinion, and spin it for what it's worth.

Of COURSE the bridges have a finite life. But this SOP (standard operating proceedure) of "EMERGENCY! WE TAX . . .OR BRIDGE (de jour) IS ABOUT TO COLLAPS" ...

Don't you find it curious that now that the viaduct Big Dig is off the table, politicians have found a new poster-child crumbling (if we get hit with just the right (direction and mag) huge earthquake which surpasses the earthquake design loads) Bridge?

[Superman]

.

[jyl]

What ever happened to the light rail plans for the Seattle area?