Help me out with a little Hybrid math

BlueSideUp · 05-31-2007, 12:34 PM

My wife runs her own business doing physical rehabilitation/specialized training. Her degree is in kinesiology which puts her somewhere between a personal trainer and a physical therapist. She trains people from pregnant ladies, older people, people recovering from injuries, and professional athletes. She also does massage therapy and meets with her client's doctors on a regular basis. All of this in addition to teaching outdoor training classes.

She ends up driving 200 miles or more per day due to running around client to client. Sometimes she has to carry about 500lbs of equipment which is why we own a Nissan Titan. Suprisingly the Titan does not do too bad on gas despite it's size, generally it averages 15mpg. Up until recently we also owned a 2000 Saturn sedan that she used when the 500lbs of equipment wasn't necessary. The trusty Saturn ran about 35mpg and now has 130K on it. A friend of ours is hot to buy it so we are selling the car.

The rest of our "fleet" consists of a 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 which gets 15-17mpg and my 1970 911T.

Given the miles that she drives it will run about $14786 a year to drive the Titan or the Jeep! That's based on the fuel calculator at Fuel Economy.gov and a fuel price of $3.45 a gallon for regular.

She does have to drive the Titan about 20% of the time because the equipment is necessary for some clients. Based on driving a more fuel efficient vehicle 80% of the time I've come up with these numbers.

New Toyota Prius or used with HOV stickers
$22000 without Navigation
Annual fuel cost $3600 @45mpg
Tax incentive $757

Used Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe 2WD Auto
$15000
Annual fuel cost $6133 @27mpg
Tax incentive $0

Either car will save us a lot of money annually and the depreciation will be less on the hybrid car. She needs to be able to carry large bulky items like a massage table (approx 4x5 folded) so a sedan type vehicle is out.

Do you guys think we are good candidates for a hybrid vehicle or should I try to find something else that gets in the low 30s? The Matrix doesn't exactly get stellar mileage and it is not a sporty vehicle.

We used to have a Jetta wagon with the 1.8T but it ended up being returned as a lemon. I have thought about trying to find a tdi Golf or Jetta but it would have to be an automatic. They seem to go for the high teens no matter the miles.

NICKG · 05-31-2007, 12:44 PM

sent you a pm

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Good luck on the HOV stickers - I read somewhere that they ran out 2 months ago...

http://www.educatedguesswork.org/movabletype/archives/2007/04/the_black_marke.html

Looks like that little sticker commands a $4k premium

lendaddy · 05-31-2007, 12:51 PM

mmmmmmmm Thaaaaaanks.

BlueSideUp · 05-31-2007, 12:57 PM

Yeah the other thing about the hybrid is that we'd have to sniff our own farts and talk about how cool our hybrid is....

you'll get it if you watch South Park

Porsche_monkey · 05-31-2007, 01:51 PM

I wouldn't touch a hybrid. If you buy one don't keep it once the warranty expires. I would be too worried about battery problems and electrical problems that only the dealer can fix. Lease a hybrid? I might do that.

VW TDI? Jeep Cherokee w/ Mecedes diesel? Another Saturn?

I'm not sure why your choice list is so short...

Soterik · Soterik's Garage

How about an 05 Passat TDI wagon? Wife has one, and we get 40mpg on the road every weekend that we take it to the cabin (over 2 mountain passes) with 2 kids and a loaded Thule on top.

The torque on the engine that's in the Passat is a lot higher than what's in the Jetta or Golf... Mom has the Golf TDI auto and its anemic by comparison. Passat has also been absolutely bulletproof with 46K miles on it so far.

Eric

Porsche_monkey · 05-31-2007, 01:55 PM

Yea, my friend has the Jetta TDI. Awesome mileage, almost zero issues in 100,000 miles.

Moses · 05-31-2007, 02:04 PM

The 2007 Mini Cooper gets 34 mpg city/ 40 mpg hwy. It's a hatchback and if you fold down the rear seats, you can haul a lot of gear.

BlueSideUp · 02:13 PM

PBH- I've thought about the Jeep and another Saturn. The big problem with the Jeep is that people aren't getting the mileage they expected out of them (21mpg). I just don't think buying a diesel SUV for driving around the southern California jungle make much sense and 21mpg isn't much different from 15mpg.

The Saturn does not fit me at all (I'm 6'5") and frankly feels like driving a rubbermaid trash can at 70mph. The massage table will fit in the Saturn if you put the back seats down and empty everything out of the vehicle.

The list is short because of the criteria...

1. I'm too tall for a lot of cars
2. Must fit the massage table
3. Must get at least high 20s for gas mileage
4. Must not feel like rubbermaid trash can
5. Must be an automatic (wife can't drive a stick shift)

I used to own a Passat 1.8T and I loved that car. It really was a great drive and was able to get great gas mileage (35mpg highway with the 1.8T). It is also the only car I've ever actually had to move the seat forward. The Passat tdi is fairly expensive used because it is such a great vehicle. Most of them seem to go for the mid 20s and I haven't seen any wagons for sale. We had the Jetta wagon but it caught fire while my wife was driving. I'm not sure if she has any post traumatic stress from that experience but that might have an effect on buying a VW again.

The 2007 Mini is rated at 26 city and 33 highway for the automatic which is good but I'm willing to bet the Mini dealer is still charging in the low 20s for a regular Cooper. Do they still have that CVT? I looked at the '06 Cooper S before buying a Mazda3 and the prices were not in line with the quality (even used).

The Mazda3 was a great car but it was pretty heavy and the engine was not very efficient. The highest gas mileage I saw with the car was about 28mpg on a highway trip. My brother's girlfriend offered me what I paid for it a year after purchasing so I sold the car. It was pretty much free for the 15K and the year we owned it.

jyl · jyl's Garage

The Prius' reliability is excellent. I've never heard of a battery needing replacement. You can get the extended warranty for peace of mind. By the time it runs out, hybrid technology will be commplace so independent mechanics will fix them, and a replacement battery will be cheap.

I'm not sure how good it will be to carry the massage table etc. The cargo room is decent with the rear seat folded, but you have to lift the object up over the hatch lip. Try it and see, I guess.

I'd think the HOV sticker would be a major plus, depending on where she drives. I think the ideal would be to get a used Prius that has the HOV sticker, and that is new enough that Toyota will still sell you the extended warranty, want the vehicle in near-perfect condition of course. Even if the sticker offset depreciation so that the car cost the same as a new car, I'd go for it. The sticker is supposed to be good for another 3.5 years (to 1/1/2011).

Is your wife an economical driver, or is she a gas hog? The Prius' mileage is quite dependent on the driver. As much as a 10 mpg range depending on the driver.

I think a VW diesel would be a good alternative. I'd have more faith in a Toyota for reliability, but a Passat wagon would swallow the massage table easily, plus deliver excellent mileage.

BlueSideUp · 05-31-2007, 02:58 PM

All good points. My wife doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to her driving. When we test drove the Prius I pointed out the whole regenerative braking thing and how using the A/C can seriously effect the mileage. She will pay attention to stuff like that but I highly doubt she would be one of those people who squeaks 55mpg out of a hybrid. That's why I say it'll only average 45mpg even though that is more than 10mpg less than Toyota's numbers.

She drives up and down the 5/405 quite a bit so the sticker would be handy.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-31-2007, 03:07 PM

Another question in regards to the hybrid, what kind of driving does your wife do? Hybrids are at their best in stop and go driving, it allows the batteries to recharge via regenerative braking. For highway, a TDI will beat a hybrid, and there are many other cars that can get close. Also, bear in mind that the EPA numbers are VERY optimistic, in reality most people are lucky to get close.

Your list is way to short. From the sound of things, any hatchback/wagon will suit your purposes pretty well. Here's a few: Audi A3, Lexus IS hatchback, Subaru Impreza/WRX wagon/Legacy wagon/Forester, A4 or A6 Avant, Passat wagon, used BMW E46 or E39 wagon. That's just a few, and all way more fun than a Prius.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-31-2007, 03:09 PM

Damn, you beat me to it.

LeeH · 05-31-2007, 03:23 PM

Ford Escape Hybrid?

BlueSideUp · 03:43 PM

Quote:

[i]
Your list is way to short. From the sound of things, any hatchback/wagon will suit your purposes pretty well. Here's a few: Audi A3, Lexus IS hatchback, Subaru Impreza/WRX wagon/Legacy wagon/Forester, A4 or A6 Avant, Passat wagon, used BMW E46 or E39 wagon. That's just a few, and all way more fun than a Prius. [/B]

I actually looked at an IS hatch quite some time ago and it was a nice car. According to the website the IS is rated at 18mpg city and 22mpg highway, it's just way too inefficient.

The Subaru is unfortunately not very efficient either. The non-turbo Forester has a combined rating of 22mpg and the turbo is rated at 20mpg. I guess that's aerodynamics and awd for you. The AWD isn't necessary in Socal anyway.

The BMW 325i Sport Wagon is rated at 20mpg as well.

We looked at an A4 wagon quite some time ago. It was an '00 or '01 model and my wife seemed to like it. The problem again is that you can only get a wagon with quattro and it's rated mpg is in the low 20s as well.

I'm not too concerned about fun really. I mean seriously would I be looking at a Prius or a Matrix if I was looking for fun? I don't even like driving my wife's truck! The Jeep is basically my car to park at the airport and the Porsche is my fun car. We just need something that she can fit her equipment in, something safe, something that doesn't feel like a turd, something that get's good gas mileage, and something that I can fit in.

My cousin has an Escapalade (my brother's name for it) Hybrid and they really enjoy it. For some reason they don't drive it much, they prefer to drive their BMW E46 everywhere. Maybe the hybrid is just as a conversation piece of sorts. The Escapalade FWD is listed as getting 30mpg combined and has a $2600 tax incentive. Not bad overall. I'll have to ask my cousing how they like theirs. Doesn't the idea of a hybrid SUV seem a little silly?

edit: Holy crap! An Escapalade hybrid is pushing $30K!

jyl · jyl's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
Hybrids are at their best in stop and go driving

You just described the LA area freeways . . .

BlueSideUp · 05-31-2007, 03:36 PM

HA! Isn't that the truth. Especially in the summertime driving down to San Clemente.

onewhippedpuppy · 05-31-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSideUp
I actually looked at an IS hatch quite some time ago and it was a nice car. According to the website the IS is rated at 18mpg city and 22mpg highway, it's just way too inefficient.

The Subaru is unfortunately not very efficient either. The non-turbo Forester has a combined rating of 22mpg and the turbo is rated at 20mpg. I guess that's aerodynamics and awd for you. The AWD isn't necessary in Socal anyway.

The BMW 325i Sport Wagon is rated at 20mpg as well.

We looked at an A4 wagon quite some time ago. It was an '00 or '01 model and my wife seemed to like it. The problem again is that you can only get a wagon with quattro and it's rated mpg is in the low 20s as well.

Where are your numbers coming from? Here's what I found:

Legacy wagon (non-turbo) Automatic: 23/30 mpg
Legacy wagon (turbo) Automatic: 19/25 mpg
All the other Subies are about the same, since they're essentially the same motor. All are over 25 MPG HWY with a stick.

New 325i wagon is 20/30 MPG

New A3: (Urban) 24 mpg, (Extra-urban) 32 mpg, 27 mpg

New A4: 22 mpg, (Extra-urban) 31 mpg, (Combined) 25 mpg

Take it with a grain of salt, but all MPG numbers are semi-BS. My 1.8T 5 speed A4 got almost 30 HWY, so I would bet those numbers are pretty close.

Lexus IS I have no idea, but that seems VERY low. Most modern cars get 25 MPG or better on the highway. Even my 540/6 speed managed 25.

LeeH · 05-31-2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSideUp
Holy crap! An Escapalade hybrid is pushing $30K!

They're averaging around $18K at the dealer auction for '06 and '07 models. Not a lot of them going through though. I've seen a couple that were former Alamo rentals... one of which is scheduled to be auctioned off Wednesday. 27K miles on a 2007 (?).