Lets See How Good U Really Are MRM

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Russia only declared war about the time the Bombs dropped. The USA really didn't want any participation from the Russians in case of an Invasion of Japan, because they didn't want a partial Russian occupation of Japan.

[Howard Agency]

Thanks for the interesting links to follow.

[MRM]

No and no, Tabs. Almost right but not quite. Hitler did not declare war on the US assuming that the Japanese would declare war on Russia. He had no agreement with them, did not ask them to do that, and their treaty did not require it. Hitler was not obligated by his treaty to attack the US just because the Japanese did. No one really nows why Hitler did it other than as suggested above, he was winning and it looked like a good idea to him at the time.

The US was begging the Soviet Union to come in to the war in the Pacific for more than a year. The US was anticipating an invasion of Japan and wanted to use Soviet troops. The Soviets quite sensibly didn't see what was in it for them to get involved too early; they wanted to get involved to grab some land, but they didn't see why they had to put up any men if they could wait us out and have us do the fighting. The Soviets declared war on the Japanese almost simultaniously with the bombs being dropped so that they could get into position to grab what they could. But by then the tables turned and the US tried to keep them away because we weren't going to need their extra bodies for an invasion.

The upshot was that the Soviets got a couple of islands, didn't have to fulfill any of their promises of providing troops, and Japan was largely free of Soviet occupation after the surender.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by MRM
No and no, Tabs. Almost right but not quite. Hitler did not declare war on the US assuming that the Japanese would declare war on Russia. He had no agreement with them, did not ask them to do that, and their treaty did not require it. Hitler was not obligated by his treaty to attack the US just because the Japanese did. No one really nows why Hitler did it other than as suggested above, he was winning and it looked like a good idea to him at the time.

The US was begging the Soviet Union to come in to the war in the Pacific for more than a year. The US was anticipating an invasion of Japan and wanted to use Soviet troops. The Soviets quite sensibly didn't see what was in it for them to get involved too early; they wanted to get involved to grab some land, but they didn't see why they had to put up any men if they could wait us out and have us do the fighting. The Soviets declared war on the Japanese almost simultaniously with the bombs being dropped so that they could get into position to grab what they could. But by then the tables turned and the US tried to keep them away because we weren't going to need their extra bodies for an invasion.

The upshot was that the Soviets got a couple of islands, didn't have to fulfill any of their promises of providing troops, and Japan was largely free of Soviet occupation after the surender.

Interesting... I have never heard that the US was "begging" the Ruskies to come into the war in the East. All of the information that I have seen was exactly the opposite, that we did not want them to come into the war against Japan, especially in 1945 as we knew that they wanted only territory and not to help.

Assume that you have references to back this up?

[M.D. Holloway]

TABS, you writ'n a term paper or sump'n?

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Shi+ Lubby everything I wrote here I knew by the time I got outa High School.

[Rick Lee]

Stalin told Churchill and Roosevelt at Yalta that he would attack Japan 90 days after the end of fighting in Europe and he reaffirmed this at Potsdam. They kept their word and took the Kurile Islands before Japan surrendered.

[MRM]

Rick is 100% correct. The US thought it was a good deal at the time.

[ed martin]

OK, I think I saw this topic on the Discovery Channel.It was about the importance of having good intelligence and how pivotal it is in determining the outcome of battles, wars and ultimately the fortune and future of nations. If I recall, the Germans had a window of opportunity to march into Moscow with virtually no opposition. However the Germans were completely unaware of this, due to a lack of good intelligence and completly missed a golden opportunity to conquer Moscow unopposed. Knowlege ofhis simple information and the Germans marching directy into the city instead of amassing on the outskirts would have complety altered the momentum and the course of the war. If my memory is correct,I think this course of action is a case study of one of the largest intelligence blunders in military history. The reason Moscow was left vulnerable is because Stalin had a non
aggresson pact with Hitler, so Stalin diverted his troops to the east to ward off the Japanese threat. This was despite all the information from
Stalin's intelligence officer's warning him of an imminent German invasion. Stalin was in complete denial of these reports and even went as far as to punish or imprison officers that communicated these warnings. Of course once the Germans started the invasion there could be no further denial, but hesitation in the German advance bought Stalin time to redivert his troops and of course the onset of the Russian winter ultimately doomed Hitler's plan to level Moscow. That was Hitler's intention by the way,to completely destroy the city. There were also plans on the table for long range bombers to bomb the America. There were some kinks to work out in that plan and utimately funds were diverted elswere to adress some other crisis of the moment. For what the German's lacked in intelligence capacity they made up for in innovative technology. The Russians had an incredible intelligence capability that even extended to far within the walls of Washington. If you think about it, it's really how they aquired most of their present technology.

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Ed what about the 2M Russian troops the Germans killed or captured in the 1st few months of Operation Barborosa?

[ed martin]

Well, there seems to be a debate among historians as to the intentions and the resultant outcomes of decisions made by the leadership involved on both sides. Kind of like Monday morning or arm chair quarterbacking.

Operation Barborosa was the intial thrust of the Germans on their drive to Moscow. This was after a lot of shell games on behalf of both sides. Germany maintaining that troops were amassed in the east to escape allied bombing and there were a significant number Russians on the opposite side under the pretext of training exercises. To make a long story short there was a non aggression pact between the two and Stalin was completely surprised when the operation began. That much historians agree. Once the Germans were within striking distance of Moscow, there tank divisions were diverted to Stalingrad to the north and the oil fields to the south. This decision by Hitler much to the opposition of his generals. Now to say that Moscow was completely vulnerable at this point is maintained in the Discovery channel documentry to the best of my recollection. However at best this is still opinion! To what extent Moscow was that vulnerable is speculation maintained by the author of this particular doc. That being said, I think that military academic circles, whose business it is to analyze these events, seem to agree that this was in fact a tremendous blunder. That had the Germans continued without this diversion the conquest of Moscow would have been more assured and quite possibly have altered the course of history as we now know it. In other words Wir soll der Duetsch sprecken.

[tabs]

Ahhhh ED, before you gain credibilty as a Historian you do need to learn your Geography....Stalingrad is way to the South of Moscow. nopt NORTH. It wasn't until the Spring Offense that Hitler opted for the Southern strategy of Russian Resources.

There was a point in late August of 1941 that Hitle decided on a battle of encirclement to anhilate further Russian Armies. This diverted the Panzer Divisions froming pushing on towards Moscow, which was lightly defended at the time. This delay of a few weeks put the Germans into the Rainy season in Russia which ground their offensive to a halt. Then with the first freeze they were able to continue on, however as stated before exhaustion of troops and equipment along with the Russians having gained some time were able to bring up troops from the East to defend Moscow.

[ed martin]

Oops, I mean Leningrad. Nevertheless, the upshot of all this is to say that Moscow was indeed lightly defended and the Germans lacked sufficient intelligence to take advantage of this fact.

[tabs]

I don't think it was so much an intelligence failure but a failure of HAVING CLEARLY SET GOALS>

One of the most evident German failures was what to do if France fell. There was no thought as to preparation for an invasion of England before the French Offensive. There was NO LONG RANGE STRATEGUC PLANNING. That was Hitlers nature... everything was adhoc. That was one of Mansteins reasons for Germanys loss of the war.

[MRM]

I hate to agree with you, Tabs, since it's more fun to debate, but it is shocking, isn't it, to think of one of the greatest failures in strategic planning ever.

Picture the German Army having routed all of Western Europe's armies, standing on the shore of the English Channel looking west with the greatest armed force ever assembled to that date - and absolutely no idea of what to do next.

[ed martin]

Well yes! I think Germany's goal in this instance was quite simple- to conquer Moscow, the very heart of the Soviet empire, an idea that was critical to success in regard to the overall strategic plan. The point of the peice was, that had Hitler realized that Moscow was indeed lightly defended, he could have achieved an early victory. It has to be understood that goals or objectives go hand in hand with good intelligence. I think the assumption at the time was that Moscow was heavily fortified and so the critical delay.

I think it can be said that for all of the Germans' tactical and technological brilliance, they did lack in overall strategy. I think they overlooked intelligence because of the overwelming success in the early stages of their operation. They assumed that the Soviets were another easy victim. In fact the first Germans into Russia were welcomed by Soviets as liberators from Stalin's tyranny. This attitude was short lived once the Germans started killing them. Because of the German's stunning early successes they really started to believe in their place on the planet as "ubermenschen". This arrogance ultimately led to their downfall. They were completely surprised by the ferocity and tenacity and sheer superiority in numbers of the Soviet people. The point of all of this is really about the corollarys that would apply to our present day predicament, not to repeat the mistakes of history and the importance of good intelligence and an overall strategy. That being said, I certainly would not want to open up a political disscussion here. I would like to avoid that pile of dog doo-doo.

[Rick Lee]

Ed, I think you meant to say the German were welcomed as liberators by the Ukrainians, not the Soviets. After Stalin's forced famines on the Ukraine, just about any invader would been welcomed. Sadly though, the Einsatzgruppen wore out their welcome there in short order.

[ed martin]

Yeah, I think my use of the word Soviet was in speaking in general terms here. However it would be a poor choice as I believe Soviet has implications of one commited to the communist- Stalinist ideaology. I'm not terribly great at the particulars but what I'm more concerned about is the overall message, the larger picture.

[tabs]

I think your barking up the wrong tree to make your point when it comes to intel and the ultimate decison for the German Army to wipe out another Russian Army or 2 instead of reaching for the prize of taking Moscow.

You would be better off talking about D-Day and the German failures there, or the Allied failure before the Arnhem and the Battle of the Bulge.